AGuest: According to Rev 11:15,16 the 24 elders could not be humans [Abraham, Noah, Moses, etc] from the Earth. The Book of Enoch mentions at least 7 or 8 Archangels by name.
The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......
by EndofMysteries 75 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Jeffro
The '24 elders' may be a reference to the groups of 24,000 "officers that were ministering to the king" from 1 Chronicles chapter 27.
Other than that, the author of revelation (whether John or someone else) was probably suffering from ergotism. The book should not be taken literally.
As a general guideline, on the basis of mathematical probability alone, any interpretation of Revelation where something 'must' affect people 'now' is probably wrong.
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AGuest
According to Rev 11:15,16 the 24 elders could not be humans [Abraham, Noah, Moses, etc] from the Earth.
Perhaps I'm missing something, dear NE (again, peace to you!). Those verses state:
"Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God..."
I don't see anything there that precludes them from having been bought from the earth. What am I missing, dear one?
The Book of Enoch mentions at least 7 or 8 Archangels by name.
Yes, I understand. But that is a mistransliteration... because of the "rank" of these. They are chiefs... princes, actually... which means they are over "principalities," or territories... not that they are rulers (Daniel 10:13; Ezekiel 28:14). They are "cherubs." TWO of these "cherubs"... or chiefs... were assigned to protect the "cover" of the "Ark". They are the two HIGHEST cherubs... or angels... and are "of the Ark." Or "arkangels." Unfortunately when rendering the translations from Hebrew to Greek then back to Hebrew... the scribes relied on their own understand, rather than on holy spirit (Jeremiah 8:8). Which is why my Lord condemned THEIR work along with the works of the corrupt priests and lawyers/religious leaders (Pharisees/Sanhedrin), saying "Woe to you... scribes!" to them. What work was he condemning? The Septuagint (LXX) which was the "bible" of his day (since he was condemning the JEWISH scribes, it would not have been perhaps the older Samaritan Pentateuch/Torah).
Many condemned that canon, actually, though... and after some time, the Masoretes undertook to make corrections (which also includes errors, unfortunately, because, again, holy spirit wasn't involved). They didn't literally change the LXX but documented the errors THEY found in the margins. Unfortunately, most modern bibles talk their text from the Septuagint... which hales from the 3rd and 2nd centuries BCE and is the oldest version in existence (save, perhaps, the Samaritan Pentateuch... which they, Samaritans, believe one version, the Abisha Scroll, dates back to 13 years after Israel entered into Canaan with Joshua). The HEBREW parts of the Bible that we have today are translations from Greek BACK to Hebrew... and not the original Hebrew (not even close).
Even so, the common thinking is that there are only 7 or 8 "archangels"... not 24. Are you thinking their may be more? And if so, on what do you base that? Again, not trying to be negative; just trying to understand.
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a doulos of Christ,
SA
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*lost*
LOVE THIS .......
I Have been loking specifically for this type of information and discussions to help me in my current research in search of 'TTAT' which I have only become aware of most recently. It is a huge amount of information and impossible for me to cram in years of research in a few days. But I am thirsting for knowledge and actually buzzing with excitement at what revelations may come about through ardent, vigorus debate and cross referencing of information, thoughts and ideas spanning the entire world entirely based on one specific subject, which is made up of the follwing components.
- Jehovah God
- Jesus Christ
- The Holy Spirit
- The Heavens - Both? literal spiritual and possibly earthly
- Angels - organised and many different types.
- Satan
- Demons
- God's Righteous Ruling Goverments - Both Heavenly and Earthly
- Mankind - many tribes, tongues and nations
- Phrophecy - and prophets.
- Organised Religion / Worship - many diiferent varieties and types, forms.
- Jehovah's Witnesses - and therefore all of the above subjects both individually and combined by relevance, and all the relevent masses of information, history, geology, science, medicine, religion, politics, social studies, etc. etc . the list goes on and on, just add subject.
IT'S ALL CONNECTED. A cycle ? A system ? On organisation ?
The only way a person can understand or have the knowledge of these things can only get it by ONE WAY. A combination of Deep intensive study, (prayer if you believe) research.
This is what scholars, scientists, teachers etc. do. They find out as much as they can and they share the information.
Isn't this precisely what we are taught directly from the Bible, Jesus, God, Holy Spirit - the energy source that powers it all ?
Can it really all just be as simple as - just accepting the actual Bible story and believing in it and trusting it, as supposed to be passed onto to us as our spiritual heritage, as it is told as the inspired word of God ?
The sons of Adam who, so desperately want to be reconciled back to God, original condition of perfection before corruption, as believed by individual man, based on his search for truth and knowledge, his spiritual heritage, as earthly children of god. the heavenly children being a seperate part of the organisation, the heavenly part of God,s Kingdom. Which has to bring into force on earth to rule mankind from heaven to put right what went wrong in the beginning, because of the fallen Angel, who was perfect, turned bad - how long was this time period leading up to the first original sin ? What describes his as being by his name. Satan the Devil. The first Prophecy. The seed, from which something will grow. it grows over a period of how many years in entirety ?
Could the heavenly organisation be structured simply as
God, Jesus, 24 elders ( SPECIAL ONES ) possibly sourced from the the great patriachs and leaders, teachers, SPECIAL people ? ) 144,000 co-rulers - Spirit Anointed, selected by Jesus, presented to God as gifts from mankind -
with the elders under Christs headship, then Angels etc.
All things being accomplished, made possible by the Power of the Holy spirit - Gods active power source.
Does it mean this was the only was these things could be accomplished in the correct way pertaining to God's righteous moral standards that he cannot compromise on nor tell a lie.
is it all similar to a game, of manouvres ? Like Politics. What do politics represent ? Earthly kingdoms and rulership of man and all of the problems that result due to sin and man's fallen status. Sons of the Devil or of God the heavenly father, Divine being. Those who are from the breeding and bloodline of God or the Devil. Gebetics can even come in here, the history, then social structures ........ BACK TO THE BEGINNING.
It goes round and round, on and on, like a chariot on wheels...... moving forwards to a predicted, predestined, prophecy as told to us through the Bible, written by man, insired of and preserved by God by means of his Holy Spirit, Jesus, his first creation and Co-helper, through whom all things were created, his is Son of God we are his earthly residing brothers and sisters ( from another Mother/father, race ) and his heavenly Brothers chosen and resurrected out of the faithful and true ' REAL SERVANTS ' from among mankind, The spiritual GIANTS of old ? being born of earth but raised to heaven, to co rule with the 24 elders .... etc.... BACK to the beginning again. ( earthly giants created by Satan, copying Gods original purpose for the Earthly Spiritual Giants )
Satans earthly system a counterfiet copy of Gods Heavenly Goverment. as Satan is desperate to be greater than God, but he can't. He is no match. The end is near, time is running out for the Devil and his Demons, as foretold ? last days time of the end ? Back to the beginning ? But closing all down closer and closer, tighter and tighter, reducing, refining ? Mankind. A cleasing process. A harvest ? A sorting of the sheep and the goats, Earthly sons of God, earthly sons of Satan.
Same patterns, different time settings and human organistions, society structures, heirachies, rulerships. clans/tribes, nations, tongues .... etc.
Differant Epoch / time era.
The times ? of the end, last days etc.
Is this basically all of what it pretty much is condensed down into a bite sized piece easy to comprehend ?
I would like to apologise in advance to anybody who may take issue with me. i'm sorry it is so long and a lot of information. But I really am trying to cram in a lot and learn a lot in a short space of time. like everyone else, i think, I'm searching for truths, facts and figures to assist my learnig.
Please forgive me and be patient as I am kinda like a child thirsting for knowledge. I haven't been this interested or animated by anything so much in a long long time and I am buzzing that I am learning so much.
I feel privilaged to be able to share of, all of your stories, thoughts, ideas, learnings etc. I it really does mean a lot to bea ble to do it. The internet is an amazing creation of man.
If you think I am raving, lol, that's fine, I'm just putting my thoughts out and wondering about others thoughts too.
i'm doing all of this an an intense personal study/meditation attitude and I am thoroughly enjoying every bit of it all so far on my journey through this process until I can decide what I am going to do now/next.
many thanks
lost - maybe soon to be found.
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Apognophos
Johning.
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Newly Enlightened
I know most of you won't give any credibility to the Book of Enoch, since it's a 'rejected lost book' even tho at Jude 1:14, 15 the bible writer quotes directly from the Book of Enoch
14 Yes, the seventh one [in line] from Adam, E ′ noch, prophesied also regarding them, when he said: “Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads, 15 to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and concerning all the shocking things that ungodly sinners spoke against him.”But in Enoch there are several archangels mentioned by name that are referred to as 'The most holy angels'. But they are not considered regular angels. They hold a special positions. And just for reference, Michael the archangel is mentioned as serving 'the Word', God's anointed Son personally. He's basically Christ's right hand man/angel.
Just my thoughts.
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EdenOne
AGuest ... or anyone for that matter ...
I have pondered the possibility that the "24 elders" may include the likes of Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses ... it makes a lot of sense to me, actually. Yet, this reasoning would imply that such men would have been resurrected to a celestial position before Jesus was. This seems to colide with Colossians 1:18, where Christ is called “the firstborn from the dead.” (Since there has been resurrections in the days of Elijah and Elisha, surely this means a resurrection for a different type of life); Also 1 Corinthians 15:20, that says: " Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]."
This appears to contradict the possibility of a resurrection for a celestial life to have ocurred before Jesus was resurrected. How do you resolve this contradiction? I'm very interested in hearing it.
Eden
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*lost*
Could it be possible that they were asleep in death waiting for the time to come when Jesus was to fulfill the prophecy ?
When Jesus was resurrected and transfered back to his original Spiritual form, but now with greater power, sitting at God's right hand ? Waiting ? Until God says, now is the time. isn't that what we are supposed to be on the watch for continuosly, urgently ? To keep refining ourselves and presenting ourselves as followers as best we can, as imperfect humans.
We have to figure out which way round things are and how they fit together, to build up the picture so that we can mentally comprehend all of these 'higher' things. Holy things. If it was so simple then everybody would know and play along, how would that help in the sorting ?
The harvest is great and the workers are few.
We know what the harvest is.
Who are the workers.
Who are/IS truley the F&DS ?
Or are they the entire body of anointed collectively, that should be working together to distribute the food to the flock ( the earthly hop, great crowd)
The yet to be identified remaining ones of the anointed number and how many are left ?
There would be some still remaining on earth when the GT starts. (like has never been seen before)
The wrath of God?
The arrival of Jesus?
Who is the master ? Jehovah or Jesus?
Jesus is identified as Gods master worker, so maybe God is the master.
Are we in the 'hour of the harvest'
Was Rutherford the anti-christ?
These are all the things we have to figure out and research to come to a greater understanding of things which are largely symbolic in the time of the end anyway. Are they not?
The only way any of us has a hope of doing this is by reasearching, study, deep meditation.
Didn't Jesus do exactly the same things from birth to the end of his life ?
Is this the model that he set for us to follow.
Are we playing catch up now real late into the game to cram all this knowledge now because it has been kept from us for so many years ?
Some of it was intentionally kept secret on purpose by God, not even Jesus knows. There is a good reason for this, and it ties in with what we know about the harvest and the sorting of the sheep and goats.
Are we awake ? are we paying attention ? or has the watchman fallen asleep on the job putting everyone in danger ?
Have we become so fat lazy and stupid and drunk with the pleasures of the world ( Satan's System ) that we are now in figurative sleep spiritually in this potentially real threat of the 'end times'
All the things we have been warned against.
RIGHT OR WRONG at least the jw have been actively preaching this message in some shape or form. Whether or not it is the correct message or correct form or has been veiled from us for said reason of blinding us intentionally so we cannot see.
Thereby we remain in darkness, not on the watch, not in expectation of it and we haven't a cat's chance of waking up and surviving.
Ancient civilisation had grown into a very advanced civilisation. they weren't cave dwellers for long.
Tower of Babel, scattering the men. Tribes, nations, tongues. Nimrod - dictator. Mighty hunter of men. Very cruel. Slavery ?
The flood ?
was it global ? or was it regional to cleanse a certain part of the earth. because of corruption ? Nephilim.
The dark ages ?
The book of Daniel - seal it up until the time of the end, it is secret. then it will all be revealed. new light ? brighter light ? greater understanding ? spiritual enlightenment.
The statue ?
The toes.
The march of the gentile nations are marching towards fullfillment of Gods prophecy and divine plan. ?
The overthrowing of existing kingdoms ?
Preperation of man for God's kingdom ? Earthly, heavenly ?
Receivng the 'mark' ?
forehead - from God ? part of his belongings, to identify the ones he approves of as worthy of their inheritance. ?
Did we earn it ? work. faith. love. put forward real effort and ask for help. Like we are told.
Hand ? the mark of the beast ?
Or is the mark also figurative ?
only those with the mark can buy and sell and live comfortably in the system of things. ?
The righteous and pure of hard must suffer hardship as they do not belong.?
ALL of the information is out there ... if we just look for it and educate ourselves a bit (those of us that need it )
It's all out there in cyberspcae, flaoting about waiting for us to pluck it up. NEVER before have we had it so easy. Have we become lazy. Spoiled. soft. weak.
i think about the work the r&f jw put in and I can tell you now anyone who has never walked so much a one mile has no idea the amount of strength they had to endure what they endured ... and kept going ... and endured some more. Whether the r&f were right or wrong is irrelevant in my book. They were doing what they believed was the right thing. God's work. Their motive was pure and true. Which must make them desirable possessions in God's eyes. NO? YES ? Many are now at rest in death and old age, waiting expectantly for the reward for their efforts.
I really dont think it is fair to tar everyone of them with the same brush. We weren't there. We did suffer what they suffered, saw or endured. And to be honest if they thought they were doing right and they were trying their hardest and their motives were pure of heart and they in themselves were trying to the best of their ability. What they were TOLD to due.
I think a very large number of those people who went before us deserve a measure of respect and appreciation for what the accomplished. With much suffering on their part.
I had a thought once when I was reading about the camps. I just couldn't understand how they did it. How did they have the strength not to give in. Suicide was an option. Just because I didn't understand it, doesn't mean it wasn't true. part of history. It happened.
Maybe they were special, maybe they were some of the anointed ones.? Strengthened by God's spirit to do the work.?
maybe the reason why the number of partakers is grrowing now is that more of the anointed are being called forth in the time of the end ready for the harvest / resurection to heavely life ?
These are the things we have to prove disprove understand.
A lot of peole see it already, they know things.
Hopefully they will share with us and help us to understand and find our way. if we ask for it, we may recieve. if we want it. If we even care.
TRULY I AM GRATEFUL FOR YOU ALL, ANYONE THAT CONTRIBUTES WOMETHING TO THE POT IS HELPING ALONG SOMEONE ELSE WHO NEEDS IT.
THERE ARE SPIRITUAL GIANTS AMONG US, MEN FROM GOD I BELIEVE AND IF THERE IS I FOR ONE AM GRATEFUL. PLEASE PASS ON THE KNOWLEDGE TO US YOUNG, QUITE IGNORANT, AND MAYBE SOMETIMES FOOLISH, DELUDED ONES. WITH NO ONE TO TEACH/HELP US HOW WILL WE LEARN/KNOW.
Fruitage of the spirit is given to us for a reason. I f we know what it is and try to earnestly apply it we will be given it. For we are promised it.
Thank you all so much. i was lost, now I am finding my way. The road is getting brighter. i haven't stopped with this in my head for last last few weeks, sad i know. lol. but i need the knowledge. studied right through yesterday and i have been right through the night reasearching all your info you have shared here.
many many thanks. please continue to assist us.
much love
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Newly Enlightened
Ok, have to change my thoughts on my earlier posts regarding this subject....
I was just reading in my Bible Encyclopedia and it talks about the 24 PROPHETS of old, starting with Moses, from the Old Testament. I just find this interesting how they correspond these men to the 24 elders.
Just a thought
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Vidqun
Haven't researched it yet, but can the 24 elders not be the leaders of the 144000. If I remember correctly, each division of Israel had a leader called an elder which had to report to Moses. So each elder would lead a division of 6000 (24 x 6000 = 144000). Interestingly, the tribes in Revelation are divided into 12000 each. So there would be two elders per tribe (Rev. 7). But then they would have to be separate from the 144000 as Bobcat indicates. They have crowns and sit on throwns. Certainly Jesus' apostle would be amongst them. Just a thought.