The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......

by EndofMysteries 75 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  nonjwspouse

  NE, I have been thirsting as well for more knowladge about the Bible and beginnings of Christianity like never before.

  The originial books that made up the writings of the Bible contained more that there are now. Enoch, etc... They were there for quite some time and then removed. Some removed again by the prodestant reformation ( Such as Martin Luther, who interestingly also wanted to take Revelations and several others out as well. ) It's interesting how so many prodestants claim the Catholic Church added books when in fact they only made official out of what was already there. I belive they also did remove some writings as official but retained them as good historical information for understanding.

  I was never much of a Bible reader, I would read a chaper or so but not for very long. Now I want to read it all, plus the other books written in the same very early time periodthat contain even more historical information.
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  Bobcat

  Another possible indication that these 24 "elders" are some sort of high ranking angelic figures is the context wherein the 24 elders are first mentioned, Revelation chapters 4 and 5 (which, together, form a single scene in the Revelation).

  There are numerous allusions and similarities in these two chapters to the scene in Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14. In Daniel the scene includes "thrones" being placed within a setting that includes numerous other angels and 'someone like a son of man' being given rulership.

  Humans sitting on thrones with Jesus would have to occur after Jesus is crowned. But in Daniel the thrones are already in place before the 'son of man' is given rulership.

  NAC-Daniel (Stephen Miller, p.204) thinks these thrones in Daniel 7:9 are for the "holy ones" mentioned in Daniel 7:27. His basis is Revelation 20:4. But note the scene in Revelation 11:15 which has the 24 elders still on thrones just before (or at) the outbreak of the day of God's wrath. In Revelation 20:4, the ruling of these co-rulers with Christ commences after the destruction of the world system and abyssing of the dragon.

  Goldingay (Daniel, pp. 296-97) believes that "thrones" in Daniel 7:9 is plural for majesty, and speaking only of God's throne. (Thus, the footnote in the NWT at this verse.) But the idea does not seem probable (if the majority of commentaries is any indication). I think the idea of a 'majestic plural' more likely fits WT views, rather than forming it.

  At this point, Dan 7:9, 10 and 10:13 ("one of the foremost [or chief] princes"), as well as the context in Revelation (which regularly includes the 24 elders as contextually seperate from the "holy ones" and the Lamb's 'wife'), these things are predominant IMO. Although I'm open to some more persuasive argument.

  The 'created thrones and lordships' of Col 1:16 are also to me another indication of some sort of pre-Christian heavenly ruling structure. And Eph 1:9, 10 seems to indicate Christ's administration as something being superimposed over an already existing heavenly arrangement (although the idea of an already existing heavenly rulership in Eph 1:9, 10 is missing in these verses).

  And this reminds me, I haven't seen AGUEST posting here lately.

  Take Care
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  Vidqun

  Bobcat, I think you're on the right track. I will not rule out that it could be resurrected humans, the information is somewhat scanty. But here's what TDNT has to say, along the lines of what you are suggesting. They seem to be God's council of elders. The fact that they do not participate in the judicial process in the book of Revelation doesn't mean much. It could be that we do not have all the information:

  4. The 24 πρεσβ?τεροι in Revelation. Special problems are raised by the passages in Rev. in which, in the visions of the divine, 24 elders surround the throne of God in heaven along with the four beasts, 4:4, 10; 5:6, 8, 11, 14; 7:11; 11:16; 14:3; 19:4. 99 The thrones on which they sit (4:4; 11:16), the white robes and the crowns which adorn them (4:4), show that they are heavenly beings, and the title πρεσβ?τεροι suggests that they are God’s council of elders. Yet there is no mention of God sitting in council with them nor do they seem to discharge a judicial office, cf. 20:4. Their function is not the exercising of their own dominion; it is simply adoration of the majesty of Him who sits on the throne (4:10; 19:4) and of the exalted Lamb (5:8–10) → θρ?νος , III, 165, 21 ff. They sink to the ground, offer worship, and cast down their crowns before the throne of the eternal and omnipotent God (4:10) with songs of praise (4:11; 5:9 f.; 11:17 f.; 19:4 etc.). According to 5:8 they offer priestly ministry for the earthly community with harps and golden vials. Their divine service in heaven accompanies the events of redemption and judgment on earth, which the elders inaugurate and conclude with gesture and song.

  There is no suggestion that these elders are redeemed and transfigured men. 100 They are plainly differentiated from the transfigured, 7 and 14. They are also distinguished from the angelic hosts (5:11; 7:11) which surround the throne, the four beasts and the 24 elders. But they are so only as a higher class of angels which is closer to the throne of God than the others and which is entrusted in a peculiar way with His secrets. “One of the elders” functions as angelus interpres (5:5; 7:13) and the seer addresses him by the title of majesty, κ?ριος , 7:14. See TDNT, vol. VI, p. 668.

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  99 Cf. Michl, who carefully surveys the history of interpretation.

  100 The thesis of Michl, 91–114 that the elders are the righteous of the old covenant viewed as the heavenly presbyters of the Chr. people seems to me to be quite untenable.
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  Bobcat

  Vidqun:

  Thanks for the TDNT ref. I saw it cited in the NIGTC-Revelation last night but my eyes were too tired to look it up.

  A couple of other verses seem to hint at some sort of structure among angels:

  Mt 18:10 'Their angels always behold the face of my Father in heaven'

  Lk 1:19 'Gabriel, who stands near before God'

  Both these allow for some ideas of ranking, but only indirectly. As you said, its like a fleeting view of something that gives an idea but not enough to form a strong opinion. But the idea that they are the 144,000 only stands on some similarities of dress and the offering of incense and requires ignoring the rest of the context.

  Perhaps it is intended that way, (like the fact that only 2 angels are named) so as to prevent excessive interest in them by humans who are prone to idolatry.

  Take Care (and off to work I go. . . )
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  *lost*

  NE

  nonjwspouse exciting isn't it
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  *lost*

  Ne any chance you would be able to list all of the known candidates for the 24 elders from the earth.i think we have to start at and include abel though.

  There must be a reason why he has such a prominent position in the story.

  Also he is the first recorded 'faithful' and a martyr.

  We don't know how old he was when he was murdered. Highly likely as a child he grew up near the garden and saw the cherub with the sword. Adam and Eve would of likely taught him the story of their falling. He grew up faithful and obviously was a threat to Satana's plan - that's why he was eliminated, which bought Satan more time for his scheme.

  He may of even had direct communication with God. He knew the significance of the blood scarifice required.

  x
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  *lost*

  FIBONACCI SEQUENCE / SERIES/ NUMBER (CODE?)

  The Golden Spiral - cjeck it out.

  Vidqun

  Interesting point there re numbers 12, 24, 144000.

  What is the common universal language. Mathematics.

  If we had a algebra/math whizz they might be able to simplify it for us.
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  Vidqun

  *lost*, luckily we do not decide who is worthy. Let us not steep as low as the WT GB and elders to start judging. That would be Jesus' job. They are supposed to supply the domestics with food, and only food.

  I was never any good at Maths, so I sit this round out.

  Bobcat, here's an interesting reference to Is. 24:21-23, especially v. 23:

  The two passages Ex. 24[:1, 9] and Nu. 11[:16, 24] exerted considerable influence on other parts of the Bible and on Jewish exegesis. In obvious dependence on Ex. 24:9 f. the late apc. in Is., depicting world judgment and the manifestation of the coming kingdom of Yahweh on Zion and in Jerusalem, closes with the words: “And before his elders is glory,” Is. 24:23. The passage is a first example of the way in which apocalyptic likes to base its eschatological visions on sacred texts, so that it is itself to a large extent exegesis. In relation to Is. 24:23, Rev. 4 follows the same pattern in its vision of the 24 elders before the throne of God, → 668, 9 ff. In Rabb. exegesis, too, Ex. 24 along with Is. 24 plays an important part, though now with the particular intention of bringing out the special honour of the elders both then and in the future world. Cf. Sifre Numeri. Nu . , 92 on 11:16: “Not (just) in one place and not (just) in two does God give honour to the elders. But in every place where you find ‘elders,’ God gives honour to the elders.”

  Nu. 11:16 f ., 24 f. offers a model for the Sanhedrin and the number of its members, → 659, 18 ff. It also offers scriptural support for Rabb. ordination. The early Chr. church could also turn sometimes to this passage at the institution of presbyters.[1]

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  S. Nu. Sifre Numeri, Tannaitic Midrash on Numbers (Strack, Einl., 201), ed. H. G. Horovitz, 1917.

  Rabb. Rabbis,

  [1] . Vol. 6: Theological dictionary of the New Testament. 1964- (G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley & G. Friedrich, Ed.) (electronic ed.) (p. 656). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
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  *lost*

  Vidqun - where by did I make a judgement on those that are not worthy??
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  Vidqun

  I thought listing candidates for the 24 elders would be presumptuous, to say the least. But perhaps I misunderstood. By the way, I posted you an article on the aging-thread to show that sperm also deteriorate with age.