Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery 278 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  jwfacts

  Thanks Leo, I was waiting for you to step in.

  1. The logical fallacy/double standard displayed when using the WT in your argument

  • This is not a double standard. For one, just because the WT is wrong in somethings does not mean it is wrong in everything. Secondly, I quote them constantly, in order to show the contradictions.

  2. The use of the Greek words that form the phrase "great crowd" being ambiguous and used in numerous circumstances, and thus not making an automatic connection of Revelation 7 and 19

  • Leolaia has well and truly destroyed your argument here.

  3. The ten common terms listed really not being that common at all.

  • I am not sure if you are saying they are common, or not common, or which you even want to be the right answer. The fact that the ten terms used to describe the Great Crowd all are used in reference to the Anointed makes the case all the stronger that the great crowd are with them in heaven.

  4. The context and setting from the very beginning of Revelation 7 and how there is no change in setting.

  • That has been answered, even if you refuse to acknowledge that your argument holds not weight.

  5. How God will spread his tent and dwell with those who are already residing in heaven, before his throne and in his temple.

  • Again, how is that an issue? God spreads his heavenly tent over them.

  6. Why does Revelation 7 say the immortal, anointed heavenly great crowd "will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat.." and "the Lamb...will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” Surely the immortal do not need to be guided to the fountains of waters of life. Tears, hunger, thirst, and scorching heat certainly do not occur to the immortal in heaven. So why does Revelation use these terms?

  • Where does it say they are immortal? They will no longer hunger or thirst and the sun won't beat down on them because they are in heaven. They will be guided to waters of life by the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne. He is in the midst of the throne, they are before the throne, and he shepherds them, placing them all in the same vicinity of heaven.

  Since you are demanding answers from me, with your attacks and insults, even though I don't even see any point or logic behind your questions, I expect the same courtesy of you. In your congregation, are you considered the "scholar" that people look up to for answers, or are you the loner up the back that doesn't quite fit in?
• 

  jeremiah18:5-10

  I just read all 7 pages of comments, my head is spinning. Nevertheless, here's my two cents. The "setting" of any and all of the visions is one and the same in the entire book of Revelation- on earth near Patmos, as all settings are related and from the viewpoint of John.

  Since the book of Revelation is not presented or recorded/compiled in chronological order of fulfillment, the "setting" of fulfillments of visions is difficult to determine since many accouunts parallel and retell other accounts.

  You keep hammering on the "setting" of Revelation 7, which setting are you referring to, the fulfillment or where John is? Either way its a vision and admittedly John never leaves earth, correct? Any attempt to make definitive and conclusive statements otherwise is a leap based solely on personal opinion, preference, and agenda, as no one can confirm that these events ever happened [the visions to John or the fulfillments of the prophecies]

  Therefore your arguments all depend on YOUR supposition and assumption that YOUR faith is correct, conclusive, and accurate. The entire point of sites like JWFacts, as I understand it is to establish that there are no 100% correct, conclusive, and accurate statements to be held to or that can be proven. All religious views and dogma are rooted in faith [the unprovable-Heb 11:1] and even then its the subjective to the faith of the beholder.

  So the point is faith is deeply personal and NO human or organization can conclusively claim or prove their authority or their views without relying on the person being willing to surrender their views and accept the views of the person they are listening to.

  I for one only use sites like this and JWFacts as a way to gain insight into the views of others and to balance my views, not to form my foundation of my faith. For me my faith has to be rooted solely on the Bible and the way I personally read it and comprehend it, knowing that God will be evaluating me based on MY thoughts, beliefs and actions, not those of others.

  Not sure how much this really contributes to the discussion, but just wanted to contribute to the discussion.
• 

  Aussie Oz

  You know, it's funny...

  after spending a year looking at hundreds and hundreds of things that collectivly demonstrate the Watchtower society and the Jehovah's witnesses can not possibly be the one true religion,

  doctrinal debate is just a total waste of time!

  OZ

  PS it's kinda funny to see the revelation climax book being cut and pasted as an authority on what the WT believe about anything in Revelation...
• 

  Pistoff

  Recovery makes this assertion:

  Yes there were many JW's that believed that they were of an earthly class (Jehonadabs) and that is why the WT mentions many were happy and surprised when the great crowd was revealed to be an earthly class. Other WT statements clearly show that the Bible Students had many expectations regarding the future of the earth.

  You have NO basis for this except for what the WT says and possibly what you surmise.

  I personally knew those who lived before and during the period of time when the 'great crowd' doctrine was being developed.

  Evelyn, a sister who was already in her 70's when I was a pre-teen, said that she and her friends did not feel of the anointed, but their hope was of a secondary class in heaven.

  As others here have tried to tell you, the earth was NOT an option for them; that is why it was such a stunning 'new truth' when it came out.

  The Jehonadab doctrine, for her, meant that she no longer was going to be 2nd class in heaven, but member of the 1st class on earth.

  Their very own class! They were excited.
• 

  Vidqun

  Recovery, a good idea would be to take advice from Emanuel Tov, a very clever, but at the same time humble and pragmatic scholar, emphasizing the difference between objectivity and subjectivity.

  A definition of objectivity: “involving or deriving from sense perception or experience with actual objects, conditions, or phenomena”, e.g., objective awareness or data (Webster). Unfortunately the scope of an interpreter is limited, having to rely on the Biblical account, historical sources, as well as commentaries, to the detriment of true objectivity.

  A definition of subjectivity is: “characteristic of belonging to reality as perceived rather than independent of mind” or “modified or affected by a personal view, experience or background”, e.g., subjective judgment (Webster).

  Objective elements pertain to the description of the text as well as comparative historical data. However, the disciplines of translation as well as exegesis fall squarely in the subjective camp. In addition, a combination of subjective criteria and intuition is necessary to establish the importance of differences in ancient and modern translations, compared to the MT [Masoretic Text]. On the whole, something considered a solid fact by one scholar is contested by another. Because of the nature of interpretation, it attests to a great deal of subjectivity, which should be taken in account when appraising Biblical material.

  The best explanation I have heard to explain your point of view is not found in Revelation at all, but in the book of Isaiah (66:1a). But keep in mind, it is based on interpretation according to the book of Isaiah. As Leolaia demonstrated, interpretation according to the book of Revelation would point in different direction altogether. At all times keep an open mind and do not try and enforce your interpretation on others. It might come back to haunt you (cf. E. Tov, Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, p. 22).
• 

  the-illuminator81

  Recovery, it's dangerous to think for yourself, and to admit that the WTS can make mistakes. Soon you will find yourself disfellowshipped or inactive. It happened to me!
• 

  tornapart

  What I had never been able to understand was why... from the time Christ died, right up until 1935.... all christians believed they would go to heaven after they died.

  The Bible Students and early JWs believed it too. It was only in 1935 this doctrine was changed. Why? Maybe finding the answer to this question.... for yourself... will help. Don't fall back on 'well, the light gets brighter' because that is false reasoning.

  Why was the doctrine of all christians going to heaven changed after 1935 by Jehovah's Witnesses? No need to answer me, just look at it for yourself.
• 

  sabastious

  It is a blatant lie to say I dont understand others arguments.

  But you just didn't understand the argument about how you don't understand arguments...

  

  -Sab
• 

  isaacaustin

  I am surely not reading through 7 pages of this...This is not the first time this kind of thread has come up, so Recovery you are more than welcome to use the search engine here and on the web. Although I doubt you are seriously looking for answers, but are simply trying to spew JW doctrine. I am not sure if this has already been covered in this long thread, but my questions to you are:

  On what basis does the 'little flock' Jesus addressed in Luke 12:32 become the '144,000' mentioned in Revelation?

  On what basis does the 'other sheep not of this fold' become anything other than the gentiles (which the context and immediate events thereafter shows it to be) equate to the 'great crowd' in Revelation?

  While chewing on this you may also want to ask yourself why the WT attributes certain things to the 144,000 that it does not attribute to the great crowd when the Bible does not do this.
• 

  King Solomon

  Recovery said:

  Oh yes. Whales evolved from squirrels and monkeys who then jumped into the ocean for some unknown reason and then developed into whales. And by the way your uncle is a monkey, literally.

  Heh, and what were you saying about understanding arguments again?

  You clearly are someone who dismiss all that you cannot (or refuse to) understand. Your dismissal doesn't make those fossils disappear for the rest of us....

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans

  Here's one of God's creations that suggests he was working on the idea of your approach to logic before you came along to push the design to newer heights: