Interesting article, Cofty.
Christ's 'silence' on slavery.
by tec 149 Replies latest jw friends
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tec
See, now that one, I can easily refute. I have changed things that I do, that I have wanted to do, based on His teachings.
Example:
Sometimes I want to fight with someone (online and/or offline) but I don't because of His teachings.
Sometimes I want to just not care because that is easier and you can't get hurt as often, but I don't because of His teachings.
Sometimes I want to run, but stand, because of His teachings. (this one I'm still working on, because lots of times I shrink back when I should not, or 'hide my lamp under the bed')
Sometimes I don't want to forgive, but I do because of His teachings.
In the past I have not known what love is (in part, sure, but not in full)... I have been more selfish in my understanding, but His teachings have shown me more about love, and so I have been able to show more selfless love to others, family included. This does not mean that I am not still learning, becaues I am.
I have also been a coward, still am at times, but I am stronger because I look to Him. (work in progress, mind you)
There are other things than these as well, and other things that i am still working on, that I fail in, and that I will probably continue to fail in, and I acknowledge this... but He helps me. I don't change His words and teachings to make my life easier. It would be easier just to go with what is considered popular, or normal, or more accepted by the majority.
Peace,
tammy
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cofty
No Tammy, you have missed the point competely. Please see if you can find time to read the study. Of course it won't apply to you but have a read anyway.
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tec
I have read it before.
I just read it again so you know that i am not missing the point.
I understand that the article is saying that it would seem like sockpuppetry... but even the articles admits that it is not known if people and their God think the same because of sockpuppetry or because they have altered their beliefs to fit God. Connection does not mean causality.
And yes, for the most part, it is going to be in accordance to what we think God or His Son want of us... especially concerning social matters that we are unsure about. We don't really need a study to know that people do this, because there are so many variations in what people state or believe.
That does not change my post above. It is not that He changed because my views changed. I have changed (behavior and/or views), listening to Him. There are issues that i am unsure about, and will state so, rather than state that his opinion is the same as mine.
Peace,
tammy
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Angharad
I only speak for me, but I *think* a large portion of the community don't want you, me, NC, Sab, Shamus, Mrs. J, Elaine, CA, KS, SBF, Tec, Shelby, Cedars, Outlaw, Moshe, WT Wizard or anyone else banned.
My comment earlier was based on Palm saying NC was about to get deleted because a "believer" was out to get her, that is what I wanted her to backup - why would the whole list above suddently be in danger of being banned. People are banned based on their actions, nothing else that is the point here.
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snare&racket
Tec, it cant be a coincidence, that the verses you (by some magic) deem to be actually true, happen to agree with the morals of humans in 2012 and those that look ugly in 2012 are of 'human construct'. What a fine coincidense that prevents social embarrassment for you. Dont forget, despite not believing in the shepherds stories from Israel 2000+ years ago, we all know our bibles on this forum, so pretending like the minor hand picked good (which is in every other religion and human culture) outweighs the disgusting bad of the bible....slavery, kidnap, rape, torture, infanticide, homophobia, sexism, racism, genocide...(or was genocide back then something different, or just the culture of the times?) is just not going to work. I think you are in deep turmoil concerning the myths you have been indoctrinated with and i sincerely from the bottom of my heart feel for you for we have all had to untangle the truth via examination, open minded and open heartedmhonesty and facing reality despite its consequences to our life and fears.
There is no point discussing it with you if you are going to claim miraculous ability to decipher which verses are godly and which are not, its a big book, like the WT, you can cherry pick any thoughts or defences you wish, ignoring contrary verses youd rather ignore due to their "human construct." I.e. social embarassment and jurassic moralilty ! i think you realise that you are doing this yourself, in such a manner, you can pick and choose your evidence according to the debate you are in - this is what i would do on the ministry years ago and think Ii was super clever for doing it..... But look deeper and you know you are avoiding big questions, you know you have no authority to pick and choose the right answers, ignoring the bad. With Science and reason you just can't do that for it is dishonest and unrepresensitive of the truth.
tec, If i wanted to take you off a drug you had long taken and that you needed and if i told you that the research for the drug had all the very negative or no improvment trials taken out when deciding on its use, publishing only the one positive result study, would you want to take the pill tec? What if i told you that there were other tablets without the nasty side effect, deaths etc that were older than this tablet, with good science behind them... Would you rather them, or would you argue that the one good paper outweighs all the bad? What if i then told you that the good paper is actually evidence taken from older drugs and trials, and that the positive evidence had NO originality. The drug was based on NO new ideas or no new, original science....Would you still defend the positive paper? Would you still take the pill? What if i showed you that it was proven that this bad pill you had taken had been laced with a substance that made you feel good, warm, safe and was intentionally there for addictive purposes... What if i showed you evidence that the drug had altered these comforting proporties over time as peoples needs and wants changed, highlighting the motive for it being present in the ingredients. Would you appreciate the frustration of a doctor trying to take you off this addictive pill? What about the frustration of a patient that just kept quoting the positive trial paper over and over... And when the doctor repeatedly showed the illegitimacy of the positive trial, can you imagine how frustrating it would be if the patient said "i think the bad elements to the trial are just down to human nature, but the good results presented are legitimate." Only for your doctor to say "how do you KNOW that, besides its a contradiction, bad science, bad trials do not provide worthy evidence... Also here is the proof that the good you tak about was taken from older alternative drugs, it isnt even original...." And imagine if that debate became circular.
Tec we have your best interests at heart, all we are saying is...... Show us, show how you know what you claim to know, but bare in mind the significnce of promoting such a dangerous book, such a dangerous drug! What if you promote the bible to someone that doent have your magical ability to decipher human constructed teachings/actions/commands and that of gods, and decides slavery and murdering your neighbour for mowing the lawn on sunday is ok... Or jokes aside, imagine if a judge decided that the mosaic law on rape in a city was god given and that every city rape was now to be considered consensual sex, for had she screamed in a city, she would have been heard therefore she must not of witheld consent...... Its dangerous ground tec. These scrolls and the teaching in them are not benign, tell us, teach us how to hand pick what is true..... Because by one huge coincidence you seem to share the morals of a western society 2000 years on from jesus, despite him saying our times would stand out due to their lack of "natural affection"
You give the perception and defence that jesus' promotion of treating others how you want to be treated (not an original idea), and his promotion of love, being of higher worth,significance and need for 'obedience to' than his words concerning being a good slave/good slave master. On what basis? Because it makes sense in 2012? That is not sufficient, for your argument doesnt make sense when slavery was ok!
I am really interested in how you know what you know, for example You dont state .."jesus's comments about slavery undermine and contradict his comments on love" but you do you say (paraphrased) "his comments on love outweigh his comments on slavery" without any logical, reasonable, evidential, theological, historical reason to choose one reasoning over the other... Obviously we know why you do it, its an answer to our difficult question, But you have no basis for it... You have no explination for the contradiction, the lack of moral foresight in this son of a god. You have no reason to pick one of the two logics over the other, well....other than one is more socially acceptable in 2012.
At the end of the day, jesus offered nothing new, he presented no NEW moral methods of living, he offered no words of condemnation of ANY of the old testament, he instead read from them and quoted them. Jesus mentions the laws several times over, indicating his knowledge of them. Had he just once said salvery was evil, he would have saved so many lives from a gladitorial sword, so many lives being destroyed by kidnap in africa... Slavery happens to this day, sexual slavery, human trafficking. Just like the jews taking slaves of the gentile nations and trading them, selling them on. The bible is toxic tec, it is immoral, you have a very difficult job on your hands and you know you will never convince us to see it any other way now the blinders are off... The one defence you have for your belief is that you somehow know which bits are true and which bits are not....
You are still yet to explain this ability, but please appreciate there is no point trying to explain to us mere mortal colleagues without this power, the defences of the bible and its teachings. We dont have your ability to know which is bad or good, we know how maluble morals are in society and culture, so we know it is not sufficient to just argue "well slavery is wrong so that verse is of human construct" because for thousands of years, it was not considered immoral.
Just HOW are we to decipher what in the bible is true and what isnt? Jesus had expensive oil rubbed on his tootsies, when asked about the poor and needy, i.e. charity, he said that there will always be poor and needy (yes i understand the context of him leaving soon), i find this reasoning abhorrent and yet in 2012 Jehovahs Witnesses and others quote this verse to defend their lack of charity to those in need.
Now was this verse of human construct or was this one real tec? ...... Following it will lead to suffering of people in need, ignoring it will help millions of people.... Which one should i do.. ...? If you just say "thats easy, you give to charity for he also said bla bla bla bla" you are missing the point completely, you are simply swallowing the bad pill and reffering to the positive trial data taken from other older studies..... Ignoring all the bad data with no explination of why and how, and with your finger in your ears when your doctor REPEATEDLY shows you where the good data was stolen from...
sorry for the long reply tec (and everyone else), i genuinely think you are in turmoil tec, a good person whose conscience is not content with the spirtual instructions it is recieving.... We have all been there tec, we have all said what you are saying, we have all examined the scriptures and used them as a defence to themselves, we have also all hidden those doubts, quelled those questions and quenched that rising fear of loss and abandonment. BUT eventually we allowed ourselves to ask 'what if it isnt true?' and where did it lead........ To the opposite side of the road shouting 'come on over here tec, it all makes sense over here!'
Stop taking the drugs, the good evidence is not only common sense, but has long been a part of human history and is nothing new or innovative, the bad trials and evidence however has led to the worst of genocides, slavery, rape, murder.... Please stop promoting this drug laced in comfort, that plays on peoples fears and wants!
Even if you want to defend jesus you can't disagree with the risks of using the bible for a moral compass, yet this is what you do by defending its non human constructed verses, with no explination of how to do that, you also promote this dangerous drug by quoting its verses as if they are a reliable source, again with no explination of how and why those paticular verses are true or correct....
For me it is easy tec, its a collation of stories, myths and ideas, mostly stolen from religions, cultures and beliefs of people in the vicinity of its Origin. It is a mixture of elaborate lies, historical record, logic and illogic. It has moral thoughts and immoral thoughts, it attempts to explain what 2000+ years ago was unexplainable to an uneducated illiterate desert tribe. Ironically their neighbours had answer to questions they did not. Whilst jews were talking of a man curing blindness by spitting in peoples eyes, the egyptians had long ceased to be a world power, yet thousands of years before the spit on your eye healer, they were doing cataract surgery! Whilst the jews thought the earth was a flat disc (circle of the earth) resting on pillars as a foundation (bible actually references this belief alot, always talking about earthquakes/disasters as god getting angry and shaking the foundations/pillars of earth), the egyptians had long ago worked out the circumference of the SPHERICAL earth to within 3 decimal places, and so these ideas and teachings, myths and lies were passed on by word of mouth for again thousands of years amongst the very recent (in human history) jewish people, everntually to be written down. This explans the conflicts and immoral behaviour, stolen myths and lies, not all of it even made the bible... Ever heard of Lilleth? ..... This process continues with jesus, word of mouth was all that they had on jesus' words and deeds, until 30 years later (book of luke) and 7o years (next earliest new testament writing) had passed and his actions were penned. Sufficient time for contradiction, lies, myth and legend? In a world of instant news, cameras, video footage, satellite data, even with word of mouth reaching ink or computer monitor within minutes.... how much reported is true, accurate or worthy of report? Very little....
It's so much easier on the side of the fence that uses science, evidence, reasoning and logic tec, the contradictions and immoral verses have a simple explination, the bible is ALL human, you are almost there already, your just a few verses short....
Snare x
ps sorry its 5'am, i have been studying all night, the reply may not be well written, sorry x
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tec
Snare, you're a sweetheart. I don't know if i'm going to get to all of that tonight, but I will get to it. You obviously care. But I want you to consider something. I am not enslaved. What I do I choose to do. What I believe is not based on fear or superstition, but on love and on truth. It frees me; it does not bind me. Not this might not be a truth that you agree with, but it is one that i recognize and that helps me.
(I also do not witness to a religion or a book... but rather to Christ)
Okay, going to check out your post now.
Peace and love to you,
tammy
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mP
TEC:
You asked previously where Paul says women are too stupid to learn.. and here it is.
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http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/2-timothy/3
6/
For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.
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Notice only the women are too stupid to learn, not the men...
So where are your scriptures that back what you say that Jesus hated slavery... when in Mat 5 he says the law is perfect & will last forever. Jesus says in 19 anyone who ignores the laws of Moses is condemned. That means if you dont have slaves Jesus condemns you. If you try and break this "perfect" institution of God you are against him..
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/matthew/5
17 “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill; 18 for truly I say to ? YOU ? that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place. 19 Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect, he will be called ‘least’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. As for anyone who does them and teaches them, this one will be called ‘great’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. 2
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tec
They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.
Seems like poor grammar, but I always thought that the 'who' is referring to 'they' at the beginning. So it would read like this:
They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women.
They are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires.
They are always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth.
The whole spiel is about these men who do these things. Also says that they have aform of godliness but deny its power. Have nothing to do with them.
But even if it is not as i had always thought, even if it is referring to these weak-willed women, it is not saying that ALL women are stupid. It is not even speaking about ALL women. It is only speaking about this type of woman. These men prey upon this type of woman.
Peace,
tammy
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tec
Okay, Snare... once again, i appreciate your long and heartfelt post.
I do feel it necessary to point out to you that i do not follow the bible. I follow Christ. The verses I accept over the verses I do not accept.... are all dependent upon what is in agreement with Him and His teachings, and love. It is really very simple. (He teaches love, so when one thinks that something is not 'love', then one must look to see if they are understanding it properly. Since some verses can be interpreted in different ways)
I am really interested in how you know what you know, for example You dont state .."jesus's comments about slavery undermine and contradict his comments on love" but you do you say (paraphrased) "his comments on love outweigh his comments on slavery" without any logical, reasonable, evidential, theological, historical reason to choose one reasoning over the other... Obviously we know why you do it, its an answer to our difficult question, But you have no basis for it... You have no explination for the contradiction, the lack of moral foresight in this son of a god. You have no reason to pick one of the two logics over the other, well....other than one is more socially acceptable in 2012.
I do have reason to pick one of those over the other.
- Love is a central teaching of His. ALL other commandments hang upon these; and the entire law is summed up in the golden rule. (if I am remembering those two verses correctly) Slave/servent/master parables are a teaching tool... ones that the students could understand.
- He came to free people FROM slavery; albeit the slavery He spoke of was that of the spirit, that of within... a bigger issue, imo. Just as everyone within the wts is a free man... they are still enslaved to that organization. To their fear. Etc. He came to set people free from that, if they but follow Him and take His yoke. "The Truth will set you free."
Once that is done, the rest can follow. Because we act upon what is within us.
Why would a man come to free people, but think that people should be allowed to enslave others against their will at the same time?
At the end of the day, jesus offered nothing new, he presented no NEW moral methods of living, he offered no words of condemnation of ANY of the old testament, he instead read from them and quoted them. Jesus mentions the laws several times over, indicating his knowledge of them. Had he just once said salvery was evil, he would have saved so many lives from a gladitorial sword, so many lives being destroyed by kidnap in africa... Slavery happens to this day, sexual slavery, human trafficking. Just like the jews taking slaves of the gentile nations and trading them, selling them on.
He might also have gotten a lot of people killed over that sort of rebellious talk. How many people died in the American civil war?
Yet if you can change the heart within, you can end such enslavement or brutality without ever shedding a drop of blood.
Just HOW are we to decipher what in the bible is true and what isnt? Jesus had expensive oil rubbed on his tootsies, when asked about the poor and needy, i.e. charity, he said that there will always be poor and needy (yes i understand the context of him leaving soon), i find this reasoning abhorrent and yet in 2012 Jehovahs Witnesses and others quote this verse to defend their lack of charity to those in need.
I'm sorry, Snare, but that just shows what is within them. (the wts)
He was not saying 'do not give to the poor'. He was defending Mary, and the love and humility that she was showing to Him. You don't condemn someone for that. And we have countless other teachings of His regarding giving to the poor and to the hungry and to the homeless... that we know it was a central teaching of His. So we know there was something else behind his words over the oil used on him.
If you take this to mean that he did not want people to give to the poor... then that would be an example of you ignoring all the 'good' reports, to focus on the one 'bad' study.
sorry for the long reply tec (and everyone else), i genuinely think you are in turmoil tec,
No need to apologize, and I know that you genuinely think this. Please accept that i do not.
Btw, i did ask myself once... what if it isn't true... it just did not lead me to the same place that it has led some others.
Peace to you,
tammy