Christ's 'silence' on slavery.

by tec 149 Replies latest jw friends

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    How can you say slavery is a human construct when god provided laws on EXACTLY how to manage your slaves? Then jesus came and gave parables and instruction including how to be a good slave and a good master.

    2 Tim 3:16 tells us that this is gods inspired instruction....

    i would love to know HOW you know this is human constructed and NOT from god and yet other verses are. How can you tell? By what is moral in 2012? Ironic.

    of course you have no issue with blood sacrifices, leading to the need for jesus and his death for human forgiveness. Is blood sacrifice moral? I guess its easier to stand up for gods right to have lambs killed over his right to instruct how to own people.

    tec the point i made that you didnt understand... Is that you agree that slavery is wrong! This contradicts the bible where god clearly has no issue with it and jesus clearly didnt either. As god dictates right and wrong, you are being brave saying slavery is immoroal or evil.... I think the god of your bible disagrees... This is the WHOLE adam and eve debate.... Who gets to decide good and evil? I am glad you agree ith modern mankind and not the jewish god Yhwh.

  • Knowsnothing
    Knowsnothing

    How about this text? Is Paul in favor of slavery by returning the slave, Onesimus? Or would the slave now be getting much better treatment?

    Philemon 1:11-20

    11 Formerly he was useless to you, but now he has become useful both to you and to me.

    12 I am sending him—who is my very heart—back to you. 13 I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. 14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary. 15 Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.

    17 So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. 18 If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me. 19 I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand. I will pay it back—not to mention that you owe me your very self. 20 I do wish, brother, that I may have some benefit from you in the Lord; refresh my heart in Christ.

  • tec
    tec

    Why didn't Christ out and out condemn slavery? I think that is the point most of you are trying to make.

    He did teach against it. In His teachings about love (loving others as yourself does not have you forcibly enslaving someone...); the golden rule speaks against it; being told (and shown) to SERVE, rather than to BE SERVED, also speaks against it.

    OTWO stated the page before that Christ did not come to end slavery. I agree, in the context that OTWO made his point. I also disagree. Because Christ came to set people free from the bondage holding them, regardless of their station in life. Freedom from lies; from fear; from 'satan'; from sin; from death; from anger and hate. Change, however, starts from within. Everything begins with what is within us. One can be a 'free man' and still be in bondage. (take those enslaved to the wts, for instance) Christ was always concerned with the spirit, within us.

    Seems strange that He would come to set people free... but think that enslaving others against their will is OK.

    People, however, are limited by their culture and societal norms. Slavery was a natural way of life then, accepted by all cultures, including those cultures taken as slaves. Had they won some previous war, they would have been the ones doing the enslaving. That doesnt' make it right, but it does make it a deeply engrained social structure accepted by all (unless one is a slave, but I read that even some slaves took slaves, so...)

    But in Christ and God, no man was lessor more than another. Early Christain theologians argued against owning others as slaves... because they had understanding that ALL were equal under God. These are the words and teachings of Christ eing applied. This is the result, and it might have taken time... but this is the result of listening to and applying Christ's words, and understanding that in God, all are equal. Without shedding any blood, in any war or revolution. Change the heart, change the man, and slavery IS a human construct. Does that mean no one every abused his words, and the scriptures, to go ahead and dominate their fellow man? No, and we know this just by looking at history. But like all things, people twist to suit their own purposess. Think of the touture and the executions done in the name of Christ and God. Totally AGAINST his taechings. Yet excused, justified and done.

    Some hear truth. Some do not.

    In the example above, about Paul... Paul sent that man back as free, and not a slave.

    Someone has also directed me to an OT law that gets ignored on slavery as well:

    Deut 23: 15-16 "If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand him over to his master. Let him live among you wherever he likes and in whatever town he chooses. Do not oppress him."

    That pretty much ends the slavery of any slave that sought refuge with someone else. And that is in the law.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • cofty
    cofty

    Tammy - you are very selective in your use of the bible when it suits you.

    The verses about how a foreign slave was treated are barbaric - you always fail to address those.

    You have also failed to answer my main point in my first reply to this thread.

  • tec
    tec

    Tammy - you are very selective in your use of the bible when it suits you.

    Yes, I am selective in my use of the bible. I do not believe the bible is inerrant, or an all-or-nothing, book. I test everything within it, against Christ, and against love.

    The verses about how a foreign slave was treated are barbaric - you always fail to address those.

    Not at all. But there are these ignored verses (such as the one above), that seem to dispute some of the 'barbaric' verses; and so I also like to point those out for the people who would ignore them, in favor of the barbaric ones.

    You have also failed to answer my main point in my first reply to this thread

    I did answer it a few posts down after you pointed that out. Christ spoke to the truth, including answering questions that were asked of him regarding certain laws. It would not seem that anyone asked him about slavery (at least nothing is recorded); it would not seem as though that even occurred to anyone, as it was so ingrained in them.

    I also addressed your question in the above post.

    Christ came to set people free. From within. Free from bondage to sin; death; anger; lies; hate; etc. In that regard, both the bonded man and the free man were equally enslaved. He did not come to start a revolution or rebellion or war among men.

    Once the spirit (heart if that makes it easier for you to take) is free, once love is understood... the rest follows. Without a drop of blood being spilled. Unfortunately, not by those who did not understand these things, and instead twisted or warped what should have been pure and simple, so that they could justify their own dark deeds and pretend they were good.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • jam
    jam

    Tammy: "Christ came to set people free".

    Jesus stated his purpose, Matt.15;24 I was sent

    only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

  • tec
    tec

    I believe that is a 'who', Jam; not a purpose. Christ accomplished many things.

    To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are Abraham's desendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?" Jesus replied, "I tell you the trtuth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

    Peace,

    tammy

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    It's ridiculous to hold that against Jesus

    No, it's not. If Jesus claimed to simply be a man of his times, then yes, it would be ridiculous. THAT is not what he claimed. He claimed to be the son of his god, a representative of him on earth, and a moral authority. Culture should not have shaped his views. It did. On the issue of slavery---we are much more moral today than Jesus was. Yeah. We imperfect, fallen in the flesh (?), heathen humans who are lost without his authority are more moral than this guy. Frail humans spoke out and fought against slavery. Better than Jesus.

  • jam
    jam

    New Chapter: Amen

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    I think some slave owners probably did love their slaves. Since they lived in a culture that condoned slavery, they may have reasoned that they are giving slaves security in exchange for labor. They may not have seen any problem with this. Love is not reasonable. It does not automatically come with a set of morals. It can actually exist beside brutality. Love is not a code. It's an emotion. Actions are greatly influenced by our culture. A slave owner could easily reason that they are good to their slaves, keep them warm, feed them well, and therefore, they are showing love.

    That notion could have been completely cleared up with one word from Jesus. He chose not to clear it up. He was more upset by vendors in the temple. And his followers today insist that because he taught 'love', that should have been the signal not to hold slaves. I disagree. We can rationalize anything. Jesus failed the human race in this area, and no excuse absolves him.

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