by sabastious 120 Replies latest jw friends
Do you think of yourself as an expert on atheists?
Do you think you are? I asked you to point me to an atheist that reasoned if JW's didn't have the truth, then no religion did. I would suggest to them that they may not have investigated deeply enough. No claim to expertise, just an offer to bring some things to their attention.
Now why did you get snarky?
They are a secret society. I don't mean to be overbearing, just most people don't appreciate the gravity of this situation we have here. Does anybody know what the Governing Body actually does? Other than deal with billions of dollars collected from mind control slaves while claiming to be the mouthpeice of the Lord of the Universe?
Sab, I think you are inflating their importance because they have had such a big impact on your life. On the world scene, they don't even register.
However, I have known about fifty people who left the JWs back in the Ray Franz/1980 era - and only a very small minority became athiest.
Interesting observation, JamesWoods. But wasn't the Ray Franz schism / whatever really a religious argument? Wasn't he making essentially a Evangelical argument against the governing structure of the JWs? It seems to me that complaint is a complaint about religion. Most XJWs don't leave over religious differences these days, I don't think, the Governing Body having put an end to independent religious inquiry.
I would love to have some panel data on JWs.
That's an interesting point, Sulla, and I think dead on. I didn't leave over religious differences either--I didn't disagree with their interpretation of the bible, I simply quit believing in the bible.
Do you think you are? I asked you to point me to an atheist that reasoned if JW's didn't have the truth, then no religion did. I would suggest to them that they may not have investigated deeply enough. No claim to expertise, just an offer to bring some things to their attention. Now why did you get snarky?
It was not meant to be snarky. I asked the question because I needed your answer for communication purposes. It appears as if you might feel you could speak for atheists. But if you could that would mean that atheists act as a group and can make use of representation. Would you consider yourself a representative of atheism?
Sab, I think you are inflating their importance because they have had such a big impact on your life. On the world scene, they don't even register.
I think they do register on the world scene. They are in every country that allows them and wait patiently for any ban to lift in others. Lets get out of the "world scene" discussion and focus on the dangers they pose from a domestic perspective. The tag line for JW's is that they destroy families. A good solid economy comes with a solid MIDDLE class. What is the middle class based off? THE FAMILY. So, whether the Watchtower knows it or not, they are actually a direct attack on the middle class and therefore hinder socitial progress. They have a million strong in my country and are passionate, capable people. The problem is instead of being firefighters, police offers or public servants of any kind they devote their time and resources to the Watchtower. Who tells them to not make money which means they can't spend money, which damges the economy, and not to prepare for their future, which damges ours. They are takers and not givers, so why do we allow them in our country? Why do we allow them tax exempt status? My guess is that we are afraid of them and what they can do. They have shown incredible resilience in the past and they make sure to embelish every small victory to their adherents that takes place. I remember fear swelling inside of me as a man at a convention told us about the ban on JW's in Moscow. They like that people hate them, they use it to strengthen their control in their subjects. They just don't go away. I don't think I am inflating anything, I just think most people are averting their eyes.
-Sab
I would love to have some panel data on JWs.
Already tried to do it in this forum context. It got hijacked and derailed, then mocked as "not serious" etc etc etc.
We only tolerate the deadly serious around here, CA. Lesson learned, I hope.
It was not meant to be snarky. I asked the question because I needed your answer for communication purposes. It appears as if you might feel you could speak for atheists. But if you could that would mean that atheists act as a group and can make use of representation. Would you consider yourself a representative of atheism?
I never claimed to speak for atheists, but I have been exposed to a lot of atheists. Not only here, but in real life, and on a board I run. Atheists everywhere, and not one of them every expressed that if the WT was not the truth, then no religion was true. I asked you to point me to an atheist that said such a thing to you, and I would personally suggest they did not investigate this issue deeply enough.
Not to split hairs, but I think this is an important point. By making such a statement, you make the mistake that many non-atheists make when trying to understand atheists. You think that they have become disillusioned and deeply hurt, so they reject GOD, not GOD BELIEF. This is a huge difference. I tell anyone who is considering atheism cuz they are mad at a god or a religion that they aren't really travelling in the atheist direction. You can't be mad at what does not exist---so anger does not translate into atheism.
There is no need to investigate every religion, when all that is necessary is to investigate the premise---god belief. That is what we have investigated, and that is what we reject. Am I speaking for all atheist? I don't think so, but I do believe I speak for the majority, and if any disagree they can certainly chime in and give their special angle.
Already tried to do it in this forum context. It got hijacked and derailed, then mocked as "not serious" etc etc etc.
I don't think it is derailed, CA, people are still responding to the question. When you put up a thread that requires one short post per person, we do tend to fill it in with fluff etc----being a discussion forum, the impulse is to discuss. Keep bumping it with the same question, and you will continue to get responses.
AND ANOTHER THING---don't let some mocking get you down. It happens to everyone. We are a vast and diverse crowd of personalities---it happens.
Keep at it. You'll get some good data.
Not to split hairs, but I think this is an important point. By making such a statement, you make the mistake that many non-atheists make when trying to understand atheists. You think that they have become disillusioned and deeply hurt, so they reject GOD, not GOD BELIEF. This is a huge difference. I tell anyone who is considering atheism cuz they are mad at a god or a religion that they aren't really travelling in the atheist direction. You can't be mad at what does not exist---so anger does not translate into atheism.
I don't think anger translates into atheism by default, but there seems to be a human tendancy at work. This tendency would explain the angst I see from a lot of atheists. I would suggest that if they don't want to be stereotyped as angry, then maybe they shouldn't react when a believer makes a statement from their perspective. It first should be considered logically and then an opinion should be formed. Impulse seems to be from anger. From where I stand you most certainly reacted to my statement about video games. What about the other analogy I put right next to it? I made sure there was two so that they could be compared. Instead you jumped to a conclusion that I am stereotyping atheists. When I was really trying to depict trauma and the choices we make because of it. Can you not agree that many atheists are probably that because of a bad experience? I am not saying most atheists, but a sizable chunk of them. Also, how am I supposed to know that you aren't one of these angry atheists? Especially when you react to what you percieve as a "snarky comment." I didn't mean it that way, but what if I did? Who cares if I am being snarky? Why even bring it up? Are you trying to make a case? What case would that be? There are a lot of mad atheists out there and I am a believer. I might be in a state of frustration dealing with an attack because of an angry atheists.
-Sab
