Theocratic warfare, we all know (ex-JWs) what that is when it hits us in the face!
Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals
by Ethos 529 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Londo111
The “empirical evidence of the signs Jesus foretold in Matthew 24 as well as the prophetic timeline delineated in Revelation ” clearly point to events in the first century. When Jesus said, “This generation will by no means pass away”, he meant it. A plain reading of Matthew 24 shows the generation he was speaking with did not pass away until everything he spoke in the Olivet discourse was fulfilled. He either spoke those words in 30 or 33. In less than 40 years, it all came true.
The Bible shows the last days began in the time of Jesus and he became King upon his Resurrection, not 1914.
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Pterist
Amen brother
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AnnOMaly
The entire thrush of Jeffro's argument for a 538 BCE-return is based on an appeal to authority fallacy.
No it isn't. Provide evidence that Cyrus' decree HAD to have been toward the end of his 1st regnal year.
there are secular historians (who have no doctrinaire bias for proving 607) that corroborate that the 70-year servitude applied to Jewish exile.
Servitude is not limited to exile. This is one of the fundamental misunderstandings. The Judean kingdom had to serve Babylon irrespective of whether exiles were taken or not.
Josephus' later figures in Against Apion, based on further information, revised his earlier ones. Why dismiss his revised figures and use his old ones instead as support?
Let's check your other 'supports.'
Theophilus of Antioch - you omit to mention that, as well as placing the end of the 70 years in Cyrus' 2nd year (537/6 BCE), he ALSO places it in Darius' 2nd year (520/519 BCE). Hardly a solid source.
The sanctuary was desolate 70 years. 587 (Month V) - 515 (Month XII) = 71 years, 7 months.
You quoted Hippolytus. When discussing Dan. 9 and the seventy weeks of years, he clarifies when the temple's 70 years of desolation ended:
"Now of what Christ does he speak, but of Jesus the son of Josedech, who returned at that time along with the people, and offered sacrifice according to the law, in the seventieth year, when the sanctuary was built?" (ANF05, II.14)
Was the sanctuary built in 537 BCE? No.
In addition, here is the scriptural testimony:
Haggai 1:1-4
In the second year of Da·ri′us the king [520 BCE], in the sixth month, on the first day of the month, the word of Jehovah occurred by means of Hag′gai the prophet to Ze·rub′ba·bel the son of She·al′ti·el, the governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Je·hoz′a·dak the high priest, saying:
2 "This is what Jehovah of armies has said, 'As regards this people, they have said: "The time has not come, the time of the house of Jehovah, for [it] to be built."'"
3 And the word of Jehovah continued to come by means of Hag′gai the prophet, saying: 4 "Is it the time for YOU yourselves to dwell in YOUR paneled houses, while this house is waste?
Ezra 4:24
It was then that the work on the house of God, which was in Jerusalem, stopped; and it continued stopped until the second year of the reign of Da·ri′us the king of Persia.
Ezra 6:14, 15
And the older men of the Jews were building and making progress under the prophesying of Hag′gai the prophet and Zech·a·ri′ah the grandson of Id′do, and they built and finished [it] due to the order of the God of Israel and due to the order of Cyrus and Da·ri′us and Ar·ta·xerx′es the king of Persia. 15 And they completed this house by the third day of the lunar month A′dar, that is, in the sixth year of the reign of Da·ri′us the king [515 BCE].
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PSacramento
The Bible shows the last days began in the time of Jesus and he became King upon his Resurrection, not 1914.
And done.
*Closes computer, shuts off light, leaves out the door, closes up shop and drives away*
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AnnOMaly
Regarding Ethos's post #78.
It's been pointed out to you already that, under WT chronology and interpretation of Jer. 29:10, the vast majority of the exiles will be "at Babylon" 80 years rather than 70. It has already been brought to your attention, using Scripture, that Jerusalem may never have been destroyed at all, that Zedekiah and the people could have lived peacefully in their land had they obeyed Jehovah and not tried to throw off the Babylonian yoke. It's already been put to you that it is nonsensical to believe God meant the exiles of 617 BCE (WT time) to understand that a 70 year period "at Babylon" could, but might not, start at an indeterminate time in the future when more exiles could possibly, but may never, end up joining them there.
But all this has gone whoosh over your head and you're churning out the same old, ill-conceived twaddle.
Here are some more translation comparisons on Jer. 29:10. Both say "for Babylon":
„For således har Jehova sagt: 'Først når halvfjerds år er udløbet for Babylon vil jeg vende min opmærksomhed mod jer, og jeg vil over for jer stadfæste mit gode ord ved at føre jer tilbage til dette sted.'
"Ty detta är vad Jehova har sagt: 'När sjuttio år har gått för Babylon skall jag vända min uppmärksamhet till er, och jag skall gentemot er befästa mitt goda ord genom att föra er tillbaka till denna plats.'
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Ethos
Pterist: "Please give ONE scripture that points to Zedekiah group being brought back after 70 years !!!"
Is this a serious question? So you are asking me to prove to you that those in the third exile (the one that took place during Zedekiah's reign) would return to Judah?
Jeremiah 25 is addressed to all of the nation of Judah, including those who went into exile during Zedekiah's reign. Verse 1 "which Jeremiah the prophet spoke concerning all the people of Judah and concerning all the inhabitants of Jerusalem.." So the 70 year prophecy of restoration affected all in Judah, not just the first two exiles.
Londo: The “empirical evidence of the signs Jesus foretold in Matthew 24 as well as the prophetic timeline delineated in Revelation”clearly point to events in the first century. When Jesus said, “This generation will by no means pass away”, he meant it. A plain reading of Matthew 24 shows the generation he was speaking with did not pass away until everything he spoke in the Olivet discourse was fulfilled. He either spoke those words in 30 or 33. In less than 40 years, it all came true. The Bible shows the last days began in the time of Jesus and he became King upon his Resurrection, not 1914.
This is an entirely different subject for an entirely different thread. I'm guessing this is the preterist view you are advocating. Well I suppose we'll all just keep wondering how death and tears and pain were done away with in the first century and how Christ's thousand year reign has already ended since it's been 2,000 years but still hasn't brought peace and eternal life to those on the earth and how Hades gave up all those in it and was thrown into the lake of fire. Oh yeah let's not forget Daniel 2:44 "“And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms.." Well, Christ's thousand year reign, coming, and parousia have already come to pass and still hasn't crushed these earthly governments. How absurd this interpretation is.
AnnoMaly: No it isn't. Provide evidence that Cyrus' decree HAD to have been toward the end of his 1st regnal year.
I guess you missed Jeffro's entire biblical elucidation with his time table in which he establishes that the Jews were in their cities in the seventh month of Cyrus first year, based on Against Apion. I guess you also missed how Josephus own words dismantle his own "theories" about 538. I never said Cyrus HAD to give his decree toward the end of his first year, I only showed how Jeffro's interpretation that it occurred in 538 was weak and a poor argument.
Servitude is not limited to exile. This is one of the fundamental misunderstandings. The Judean kingdom had to serve Babylon irrespective of whether exiles were taken or not.
Josephus' later figures in Against Apion, based on further information, revised his earlier ones. Why dismiss his revised figures and use his old ones instead as support?
I only used the quotes to show that there is basis for connecting the servitude to Babylon with the 70 years of exile, which Jeffro so flagrantly asseverated over and over again as if it were true. Josephus' revision is of no consequence to the information I presented as it thoroughly debunked Jeffro's false argumentation.
Theophilus of Antioch - you omit to mention that, as well as placing the end of the 70 years in Cyrus' 2nd year (537/6 BCE), he ALSO places it in Darius' 2nd year (520/519 BCE). Hardly a solid source.
There are also obvious contradictions in Josephus' writings and among some of the most respected historians from this time period and earlier epochs. Pointing out that the source isn't 'solid' is again an irrelevant argument that had nothing to do with the claim presented as my response was showing any basis that connects the 70 years with the exile.
The sanctuary was desolate 70 years. 587 (Month V) - 515 (Month XII) = 71 years, 7 months.
Irrelevant, nonsensical response. Theophilus states: "And in the Babylonian banishment the people passed 70 years."
Maybe you should try a littler harder to deprecate my sources.
Now of what Christ does he speak, but of Jesus the son of Josedech, who returned at that time along with the people, and offered sacrifice according to the law, in the seventieth year, when the sanctuary was built?" (ANF05, II.14)
But you said and I quote: "The sanctuary was desolate 70 years. 587 (Month V) - 515 (Month XII) = 71 years, 7 months."
So which is it, 71 years and 7 months, or 70 years? The 609 chronology is exactly 70 years, but for some reason this one goes almost 2 years off track.
Also you need to show us where Jeremiah said the temple would be desolated for 70 years, oh wait I mean 71 years and 7 months.
And also show us in Daniel 9 where it says the sanctuary will be laid desolate for 70 years since Daniel was quoting Jeremiah.
And you might need to tap Daniel on the shoulder and tell him his discernment of Jeremiah's prophecy was wrong:
"in the first year of his reigning I myself, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, [namely,] seventy years."
The 609 chronology states that the city wasn't desolated during the 70 year period, and it definitely wasn't desolated from 587 to 515. So which is it? Was Jerusalem desolated for 70 years or was the temple prophesied to be desolated for 70 years according to........
And also why would Jehovah rouse Cyrus spirit to build the new temple when he allegedly prophesied that the temple would be desolate long after Cyrus would die? Why was Daniel dissapointed and confused that the temple had not yet been rebuilt when he allegedly discerned that the sanctuary would be desolate for 70 years?
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Pterist
Ethos **** Jeremiah 25 is addressed to all of the nation of Judah, including those who went into exile during Zedekiah's reign. Verse 1 "which Jeremiah the prophet spoke concerning all the people of Judah and concerning all the inhabitants of Jerusalem.." So the 70 year prophecy of restoration affected all in Judah, not just the first two exiles. ****
Starting from what date ? 3 different time periods ! based on your calculations
Daniel 90 years exile
Jehochian 80 years
Zedekiah NO Restoration.
And how do you explain Jeremiah 24 ?
This is what refers to Zedekiah's group Jeremiah 24-NO RESTORATION.
But thus says the Lord : Like the bad figs that are so bad they cannot be eaten, so will I treat Zedekiah the king of Judah, his officials, the remnant of Jerusalem who remain in this land, and those who dwell in the land of Egypt. 9 I will make them a horror [a] to all the kingdoms of the earth, to bea reproach, a byword, a taunt, and a curse in all the places where I shall drive them. 10 And I will send sword, famine, and pestilence upon them, until they shall be utterly destroyed from the land that I gave to them and their fathers.”
So refering to 70 years of exile for Zedekiah's group is nonsense, there were exiled FOREVER !!!
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Ethos
AnnOMaly:
It's been pointed out to you already that, under WT chronology and interpretation of Jer. 29:10, the vast majority of the exiles will be "at Babylon" 80 years rather than 70.
JW's are well aware that there were people exiled longer than 70 years since there were exiles prior to Jerusalem's destruction. Nothing of substance here.
It has already been brought to your attention, using Scripture, that Jerusalem may never have been destroyed at all,that Zedekiah and the people could have lived peacefully in their land had they obeyed Jehovah and not tried to throw off the Babylonian yoke.
This could be used for every prophecy of destruction and punishment in the Bible. The ten-tribe kingdom could have repented. The Egyptians could have repented. All the nations would be subservient to the world power of the time anyway. What is so special about that event that Jehovah has to use prophets over and over again to tell them that the nations will have to serve the world power at the time. Nothing of substance here.
It's already been put to you that it is nonsensical to believe God meant the exiles of 617 BCE (WT time) to understand that a 70 year period "at Babylon" could, but might not, start at an indeterminate time in the future when more exiles could possibly, but may never, end up joining them there.
No, as I proved thoroughly using the actual context and the verses before 10, the purpose of the prophecy was to dispel rumors that they would return in 2 years. The reiteration of the 70 year prophecy they had already heard dispelled all those rumors that only at the conclusion of the 70 year period (regardless of when it started) would they return. Nothing of substance here.
But all this has gone whoosh over your head and you're churning out the same old, ill-conceived twaddle.
Likewise.
Here are some more translation comparisons on Jer. 29:10. Both say "for Babylon":
I have no objection towards the term "for Babylon". I only showed the translations of "at Babylon" to dispel another untrue statement Jeffro made that the vast majority of Bible translations used it as such. Either way, the seventy years being FOR the Babylonian exile, the servitude to Babylon, it makes no difference in the interpretation whatsoever and several scholars who do not support 607 showed that such a conclusion and interpretation of Jeremiah 29:10 is reasonable when examining the context.
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Pterist
Ethos ..*** I'm guessing this is the preterist view you are advocating****
Jesus becoming king at his resurrection is a Christian concept.....Jesus returning in 70AD is a hyper and partial Preterist concept. Same argument for Christ ruling in 1914 from the heavens, but a lot more credible.