I still have not noticed any attempt to prove why Jeremiah should be taken literally. Until you address that, what is the point of your labourious, repetitive thread? As quoted from the Watchtower regarding Tyre, 70 years does not have to mean 70 years. Considering how filled the Bible is with symbology, you need to establish that this is not a term of convenience.
Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals
by Ethos 529 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Pterist
D. Servitude [top]
“… and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” Jeremiah 25:11Quite frankly, it is unclear exactly what the Watchtower Society’s interpretation of Jeremiah 25:11 is today since it appears to have undergone significant modification from earlier times. The Society’s founder Charles Taze Russell who, in The Time Is At Hand (Studies in the Scriptures, Series 2, 1912 edition, p. 52), argued that the seventy years of serving the king of Babylon only referred to seventy years of desolation of the land and not seventy years of captivity, exile and servitude.
Usher dates the seventy years desolation eighteen years earlier than shown above—i.e., before the dethronement of Zedekiah, Judah’s last king—because the king of Babylon took many of the people captive at that time. (2 Chron. 36:9, 10, 17, 21; 2 Kings 24:8-16.) He evidently makes the not uncommon mistake of regarding those seventy years as the period of captivity, whereas the Lord expressly declares them to be seventy years of desolation of the land, that the land should lie “desolate, without an inhabitant.” Such was not the case prior to Zedekiah’s dethronement. (2 Kings 24:14.) But the desolation which followed Zedekiah’s overthrow was complete; for, though some of the poor of the land were left to be vine-dressers and husbandmen (2 Kings 25:12), shortly even these—“all people, both small and great”—fled to Egypt for fear of the Chaldees. (Verse 26.) There can be no doubt here; and therefore in reckoning the time to the desolation of the land, all periods up to the close of Zedekiah’s reign should be counted in, as we have done.
Russell’s strained rendering of Jeremiah 25:11 whereby the prophetic phrase “… and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years” does not apply to anyone actually serving the king of Babylon has evidently been cast aside, as it should have been, for many Jehovah’s Witnesses 607-defenders reject such a narrow interpretation and recognize that the prophecy does entail servitude after all. That is where the bulk of the intellectual debate seems to be taking place, and where the authors of Setting the Record Straighthave taken a strong, though misguided, stand.
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Ethos
AnnoMaly: You have yet to provide evidence for the 537 BCE date. I suspect you're having trouble doing so or you would have provided something concrete by now.
I have given you a minimum of 4 secular websites that support 537 for the year the Jews returned from exile. The most respected of which, the Catholic Encyclopedia. If you don't take one of the world's most respected and esteemed religious encyclopedias as 'evidence' then there is nothing I will ever be able to say that will 'prove' 537. I will however list more that show that it is possible the Jews returned in 537 B.C.
"When the first group of exiles arrived back in Jerusalem, circa 537 B.C. they found things were even worse than expected." 1 -- J.R. Hyland's "What the Bible Really Says: Ethnic Purge or Ethnic Cleansing"
"537 BCE. - Cyrus allowed Shesbazzar, a prince from the tribe of Judah, to bring Babylonian Jews back to Jerusalem. Jews were allowed to return with the Temple vessels that the Babylonians had taken. Construction of the Second Temple began."-- Ancient Worlds
"The decree of Cyrus would allow the Jews to return home in 538/ 537 , a deliverance that prefigured the greater salvation from sin through Christ." 3 -- New International Version Study Bible
"In 537 the Jews return from Babylon and rebuild the Second Temple." 4 -- The Key of Knowledge: A Study in the Hebraic Roots of Messianic Faith
"537 - The first group of Jews arrived back in Jerusalem (Ezra 2:68) 5 -- Returning, Rebuilding, Repenting by Paul B Coulter
"But the return of about fifty thousand people (2:64-65) in 538-537 B.C. didn't completely fulfill the promises in Ezekiel." 6 -- The Wiersbe Bible Commentary: Old Testament by Dr. Warren W Wiersbe
"537 - About 50,000 Jews return to the land, led by Zerrubabel and Joshua." 7 -- Berean Fellowship: Outline of Ezra 1
"In 537 B.C. the first Jews returned to Jerusalem from Babylon." 8 -- What the Bible Is All About
"The phase of the dual centres, Palestine and Mesopotamia, from the first 'Return from Babylon' (537 BC) until about AD 500. 9 --- Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years
"The actual return must have gotten underway by 537 or 536." 10 - Archaeology and Bible History
There you have 10 secular references that support or assert that a 537 return possible in addition to the several encyclopedias and websites I referenced earlier. If you repeat I haven't even demonstrated how 537 is possible after this, I think it's obvious you are being deceitful.
You are not taking into account scholarship as a whole. You're ignoring the statements by Josephus, historians, other expositors and primary testimonies that do not confirm your pre-conceived notions.
There is no need for you to repeat what Josephus said. The selected quotes you used have been rebutted.
FALSE, FALSE, FALSE!!!! I've shown on numerous occassions that Jeffro's supposed revision of Josephus' mention of the 70 years only deprecates his own 609 chronology and that even if he did discredit Josephus' writings (which he hasn't in the least) it still does not take away from the fact that a historian associated the servitude with the exile. That is the central thrust of the argument: WHAT basis is there for connecting the exile to the seventy year servitude? Josephus showed that there was basis no matter how much you poorly attempt to discredit his writings and then later use them as attestation of your 538 B.C. return. The only person who has ignored statements by 'Josephus, historians, and other expositors' would be Jeffro since he flambouyantly said that the historians were 'confused' because they did not examine the scriptures in context and that their interpretation is incorrect; exhibiting a chain of a priori assumptionssince these historians do not agree with his flawed chronology.
Theophilus' statement cannot be used to bolster your argument because, as was demonstrated, he ends the same period of 70 years in two different kings' reigns. And it's Book III - not Book I (unless you're using another edition).
Immaterial to his statement. He still provides a basis for connecting the 70 years to the exile. The veracity of the sources is not in question, it is simply a matter of any precedence whatsoever for connecting the two. My edition says Book I, so let's read exactly what Theophilus' states: " And after these kings, the people, continuing in their sins, and not repenting, the king of Babylon, named Nebuchadnezzar, came up into Judæa, according to the prophecy of Jeremiah. He transferred the people of the Jews to Babylon, and destroyed the temple which Solomon had built. And in the Babylonian banishment the people passed 70 years. Until the sojourning in the land of Babylon, there are therefore, in all, 4954 years 6 months and 10 days. And according as God had, by the prophet Jeremiah, foretold that the people should be led captive to Babylon, in like manner He signified beforehand that they should also return into their own land after 70 years. These 70 years then being accomplished.."
Here's another secular source that provides basis for connecting the exile to the 70 year servitude.
"The most famous exile that befell the Hebrews, then—to wit, when they were led captive by Nabuchodonosor king of Babylon— lasted 70years, as Jeremias had prophesied. Berosus the Babylonian, moreover, makes mention of Nabuchodonosor. And after the 70years of captivity, Cyrus became king of the Persians at the time of the 55th Olympiad, as may be ascertained from the Bibliothecæ of Diodorus and the histories of Thallus and Castor, and also from Polybius and Phlegon, and others besides these, who have made the Olympiads a subject of study. For the date is a matter of agreement among them all. And Cyrus then, in the first year of his reign, which was the first year of the 55th Olympiad, effected the first partial restoration of the people by the hand of Zorobabel, with whom also was Jesus the son of Josedec, since the period of 70years was now fulfilled, as is narrated in Esdr a the Hebrew historian. --- Fathers of the Third Century: Gregory Thaumaturgus, Dionysius the Great, Julius Africanus, Anatolius, and Minor Writers, Methodius, Arnobius
It's pointless to re-quote the mostly-antiquated or loosely paraphrased renderings "in/at Babylon." These have been countered with citations or quotes from other translations - two of which are from the NWT! Besides, you said yourself that it doesn't matter, it doesn't alter anything, so why are you intent on flogging this dead horse?
Jeffro has stated that the NWT's translation is 'biased' and 'selective' and by quoting several other translations I am demonstrating that the translation is not selective in the least. It is a false statement and simply a matter of quibbling over a phrase or two. Whether or not it changes the 70 year interpretation, is immaterial, since we are discussing the NWT's linguistic accuracy. Please TRY to keep up with the conversation and what is being refuted/discussed.
You still ignore the fact that Jeremiah did not mention a 70 year long Sabbath for the land or a 70 year long rest for the land. Jeffro well illustrated how the wording in 2 Chron. 36:21 was to be properly understood. You are just repeating your default position rather than arguing against the points put to you.
Jeremiah mentions 70 years of desolation, inactivity, emptiness of the land. This is the same thing as a sabbath, when no work is taking place. I think that is pretty obvious to anyone who has a basic understanding of Hebrew text and who reads 2 Chronicles 36:21 directly from the original language. Jeremiah quotes Leviticus 26 verbatim which tells us the land will rest and keep sabbaths "while YOU are in the land of YOUR enemies." (cf. 26:34). 2 Chronicles reiterates this and many, many Bible translators who do not support 607 have agreed that the 70 years are connected to the paying off of sabbaths. No matter how you try to spin it, the basis is there. Whether you agree with the interpretation is an entirely different matter. Again, we are discussing the NWT's linguistic accuracy. The following translations/scholars give credence to the NWT's interpretation and translation (which dismantles Jeffro's argument that the NWT is selective and biased)
.... threatened the vengeance of God and 70 years captivity, which he called the sabbaths or rest of the land, Jer 25:11." - The Geneva Study Bible (basis thus provided for connecting the 70 year servitude to the exile to the paying off of sabbaths)
Commenting on 2 Chronicles 36:21 "To fulfill the word of the Lord - See Jeremiah 25:9, Jeremiah 25:12; Jeremiah 26:6, Jeremiah 26:7; Jeremiah 29:12. " -- Clarke's Commentary on the Bible (basis thus provided for connecting the 70 year servitude to the exile to the paying off of sabbaths)
And in the Babylonian banishment the people passed 70 years."—Theophilus to Autolycus, Book I, Chapter XXV. (basis thus provided for connecting the 70 year servitude to the exile to the paying off of sabbaths)
The country was an empty wasteland for seventy years to make up for the years of Sabbath rest [ a ] that the people had not kept." -- New Century Version (basis thus provided for connecting the 70 year servitude to the exile to the paying off of sabbaths)
God's Word Translation: "This happened so that the LORD's words spoken through Jeremiah would be fulfilled. The land had its years of rest and was made acceptable [again]. While it lay in ruins, [the land had its] 70 years of rest. (basis thus provided for connecting the 70-year servitude to the exile to the paying off of sabbaths)
“According to 2 Chronicles 36:20, the Exile lasted , just as Jeremiah had predicted before the exile began (Jeremiah 25:1-11); thus the land of Judah enjoyed its Sabbaths rests during those years (see Leviticus 26:34)” – The Applied Old Testament (thus there is basis for connecting the 70-year servitude to the exile to the paying off of sabbaths)
“The people had not allowed the land to enjoy the rest God commanded (Lev. 25:1-7; 26:32-35), so now it would have a seventy-year “Sabbath” (Jer 25:11-12; 29:10-14; Dan. 9:1-3) – The Wiersbe Commentary (thus there is basis for connecting the 70-year servitude to the exile to the paying off of Sabbaths)
“2 Chronicles 36:21 explains the role of the Exile in God’s purpose by interpreting the prophecy of Jeremiah in light of the warning in Lev. 26:34f. Daniel 9 also refers to Jeremiah’s prophecy (v.2); based on the warnings in Lev. 26:18, 34f – The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (thus there is basis for connecting the 70-year servitude to the exile to the paying off of sabbaths)
“ God had commanded Israel to observe a Sabbath for the land, allowing it to rest every seven years (Exodus 23:10-11). The people of Judah had denied the land its Sabbaths over a period of some 490 years, meaning that they “owed” the land 70 Sabbaths, and to fulfill seventy years God took the years back during the Babylonian exile.”—Guzik Bible Commentary (thus there is basis for connecting the 70-year servitude to the exile to the paying off of sabbaths)
So Jeffro is here again at odds with all the world's biggest Bible scholars and exegetical experts. Funny how he appealed to the 'argument from consensus' fallacy but now once his interpretation of 2 Chronicles 36:21 is shown to be a minority viewpoint he still holds to it.
You are ignoring the 'plethora' of secular sites that say the Jews returned in 538 BCE (in reality 5 sites to match your 'plethora' of 5 sites stating 537 BCE). You have yet to provide ANY reasoning to support your preferred year. Will you ever do so?
All your colors and big bold fonts are merely a written way of shouting "La la la la" while having your fingers in your ears. You came here wanting to "engage in discussion" but it looks like you only want a platform to promote your own views without really taking on board any contrary evidence.
No ignorance on my part. I only said it was possible the Jews returned in 537. It is possible they returned in 538 and some in 536 too. All I had to do was prove it was possible that they returned in 537, which I indeed by showing you secular source after secular source.
We were talking about how long the temple remained desolated, remember? Don't conflate the period of the temple's ruin with the period of Babylonian domination. The two periods are not the same.
I know you were referring to the temple desolation. The point of referencing the 609 chronology was to ask why the 609 chronology had to be exactly 70 years but the second 'seventy year prophecy' is almost two years off the mark.
Regarding precision, haven't you ever considered that 70 years can be a rounded number? Are the days of one king only ever 70? ( Isa. 23:15) You're already acquainted with the WTS's view that the 70 years for Tyre is figurative, right? (Isaiah's Prophecy I, p. 253) And do you think biblical edict means man lives literally 70 years, perhaps 80 due to special mightiness (Ps. 90:10) - no other numbers near it allowed?
Red herrings and non sequitir statements. You cannot appeal to a passage in Psalms or an interpretation regarding something of a totally different subject to justify your conflicting numbers. In your 609 chronology the 70 years are exact, however, in the second 70 year prophecy, the numbers are nearly 2 years off and now by insinuating a 'figurative' or 'rounded number' you are being inconsistent.
Wrong. During the 70 years for Babylon or the nations' servitude to Babylon, Jerusalem was desolated. Why the misrepresentation of our position, Ethos?
So from Nabopolassar's 16th year to the rule of Nabonidus Jerusalem was desolated? I wonder how that happened when in your chronology Judah hadn't even been attacked yet.
Jeremiah's 70 years relate to Babylon's domination over the nations. Zechariah's 70 years relate to how long the temple had still remained a ruin at the time (he wrote 520-518 BCE).
Maybe you should change that to 71 years, 7 months. Or maybe round it up to the nearest number, 72. Or maybe say it's figurative since your chronology is inconsistent.
Reference 1: http://www.all-creatures.org/hr/what-11.htm
Reference 2: http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Places/Place/339183
Reference 3: http://www.biblestudytools.com/isaiah/
Reference 5: http://www.paulcoulter.net/Teaching/Returning,%20Repenting,%20Rebuilding.pdf
Reference 7: http://www.bereanav.org/outlines/Ezra%201-outline.pdf
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Ethos
609 FOR DUMMIES: THE JEFFRO AND ANNOMALY EDITION
Here's the simplified, abridged, condensed, etc. version of the problems with the 609 chronology and it's gross inconsistency. Now let's see who paid attention in elementary school when the time came for adding and subtracting. Josephus statements are in blue, the fallacies are in red.
Book X, Chapter VII, Verse 3: "But Jeremiah came among them, and prophesied what contradicted those predictions. . . nay, that, besides this, he would burn it, and utterly overthrow the city, and that they should serve him and his posterity seventy years "
Jeffro says Josephus meant to revise his figures, so this should say 'Jeremiah prophesied that they should serve him and his posterity FIFTY years.' But wait, Jeffro and AnnoMaly say the servitude was exactly SEVENTY years, but according to Jeffro, Josephus meant to say he read in the Bible that Jeremiah prophesied 50 years.Their words, not mine.
Book X, Chapter IX, Verse 7: "All Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years "
Jeffro says Josephus meant to revise this to say: "All Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for FIFTY years." But wait, their second 70 year prophecy maintains that the temple was desolate for SEVENTY YEARS, well, actually, SEVENTY-ONE YEARS AND 7 MONTHS. And AnnoMaly just said Jerusalem was desolated for SEVENTY YEARS, but Jeffro says Josephus meant to say FIFTY. Their words, not mine.
Book XI, Chapter I, Verse 1: "God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years , he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity."
Jeffro says Josephus meant to revise this to say: "that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude FIFTY years, he would restore them again to the land of their fathers." So Josephus meant to say Jeremiah prophesied that after FIFTY years the Jews would return to their homeland. Counting FIFTY years from when Jeffro says they returned we arrive at 588 B.C.E. But the city was destroyed in 587, so that can't work. 587 to 538 is 49 years, not fifty, so that can't work. But Jeffro maintains that the servitude was seventy years (609 to 539) but here he says Josephus directly stated that Jeremiah prophesied a 50-year servitude. Their words, not mine.
In Against Apion Book I, Chapter 19 §132 Josephus states: " [The Babylonians] set our temple that was at Jerusalem on fire; nay, and removed our people entirely out of their own country, and transferred them to Babylon; when it so happened that our city was desolate during the interval of seventy years, until the days of Cyrus king of Persia."
Jeffro says Josephus meant to revise this to say: "our city was desolate during the interval of FIFTY years until the days of Cyrus the king of Persia." Counting 50 years back from 539 this takes us to 589 B.C.E. But wait, AnnoMaly just said the city was desolated for SEVENTY years (609 to 539), an interval of SEVENTY years.
Lastly, AnnoMaly and Jeffro maintain that the second prophesied 70 year desolation (for the temple) spanned from 587 to 515.
But this is a span of SEVENTY-ONE YEARS, SEVEN MONTHS. Well, since this interpretation goes almost 2 years 'off the mark' I suppose it's time to use a figurative or a rounded number. We could round it up to 72 years, but that would be inaccurate. Rounding it down to 70 years is still inaccurate, so I guess we'll go the Watchtower's figurative 70-year route. Nobody will notice that this is inconsistent with our previous 70-year interpretation, the writings of many historians (like Josephus regarding the temple), and that we can't even give you one single scripture that shows Jeremiah prophesied about a 70 year temple desolation. Nobody will notice how we completely discredit the writings of Josephus and but later appeal to them for supporting regarding our 538 BC return for the Jews. We will come up with a whole bunch of reasons why 2 Chronicles 36:21 means something else, and blame it's rendering in the NWT on doctrinal bias, even after a list of over 20 scholars, bible translations, and commentaries have been listed that show that it does indeed connect the 70 years with the paying off the sabbaths which also kills off our 587 to 538 chronology for the repaying off the sabbaths. And we will never, under any circumstances, admit that 537 is even possible, even after being shown a number of respected scholarly resources that say it is indeed possibly, and lastly: we will repeat over and over again what a terrible poster Ethos is. How he hasn't proved a single thing and how all his references are discredited, false, and the historians are 'confused' since our interpretation is the right one.
That, ladies and gentlemen, is how it's done.
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Pterist
70 years ....qualification.
Based on the "Kingdom" book appendix we know that Josephus wrote regarding a 70 years desolation of Judea and Jerusalem , in his "Antiquites Jews". Now , I remember I red somewhere that Josephus also mentioned 40 (or maybe 50) years desolation in a second statement in his book , probably he get confused . Obviusly the Watchtower did not mention the second statement. I never had any opportunity to look to "Antiquites Jews" directly. Any of you can confirm that second statement exists and eventually scan...Not the best scans, but..., from my copy of The Works of Josephus, translated by William Whiston
The Antiquities Of The Jews , book 11 ,chapt 1
The editors comments - Dissertation , Chronology p857
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Jeffro
More of the same 'quality' of responses from Ethos. I couldn't be bothered repeating myself on all the points already made (that he imagines he's refuted. )
But I did laugh at this brilliant example of a strawman:
Let's change it for fifty years. 'Our city was desolate during the fifty year interval'. But there is no 50 year interval. 587 to 538 isn't 50 years. Be a little consistent. Does Josephus' mean to say 70 or 50 in his statement here? Because according to you, he meant to revise this and thus it should say 50. So when was the 50 year interval? Again you have no answer.
Similarly, he continues in a later post:
Jeffro says Josephus meant to revise his figures, so this should say 'Jeremiah prophesied that they should serve him and his posterity FIFTY years.'
There is no reason to change that interval to 50 years, because it was referring to Babylon's 70 years. Though Josephus, in some of his earlier writings, incorrectly associates the exile with the 70 years, that doesn't mean simply changing all the 70s to 50s when he's actually talking about what Jeremiah said about "all the nations" being in servitude to Babylon for 70 years, which ends when Babylon's king is called to account.
If I have a bag that contains apples and oranges but it has been incorrectly labelled as just APPLES, once I separate the different kinds of fruit into separate bags, I don't label both bags as ORANGES.
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Jeffro
I also note that the apologist has stayed well away from my comments about Josephus' reference to 182.5 years in Antiquities of the Jews, Book X from the fall of the 10-tribe kingdom (722BCE) to the reign of Cyrus (539BCE)*.
*Established previously that Josephus counts accession years in this book.
Now, Ethos could attempt to cast doubt on this period by suggesting that I pointed out that Josephus got the 70 years wrong. However, such an attempt would fall flat on its face, because this figure being wrong would require that an independent error by Josephus just happens to make the chronology of his account different from JW chronology by exactly 20 years.
It is not a co-incidence that the Watch Tower Society's chronology is at odds with Josephus, independent contemporary Babylonian records and independent Egyptian historical records all by 20 years.
*** it-1 p. 415 Captivity ***
In 742 B.C.E. the Assyrian army under Shalmaneser V besieged Samaria.*** it-1 p. 450 Chronology ***
The difference between the above [WTS] dates and those generally assigned by modern historians amounts to as much as a century or more for the Exodus and then narrows down to about 20 years by Pharaoh Necho’s time*** w86 11/1 p. 6 A Dream Reveals How Late It Is ***
Some people argue that even if the “seven times” are prophetic and even if they last 2,520 years, Jehovah’s Witnesses are still mistaken about the significance of 1914 because they use the wrong starting point. Jerusalem, they claim, was destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E., not in 607 B.C.E. If true, this would shift the start of “the time of the end” by some 20 years.That pesky 'twenty years' just keeps getting in the way...
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Pterist
50 / 70 years ??
In five places in his historical corpus, Josephus stated that the desolation of Judah lasted seventy years. The first four being inAntiquities of the Jews: Book X, Chapter VII, Verse 3, ftn1 Book X, Chapter IX, Verse 7, ftn2 Book XI, Chapter I, Verse 1, ftn3 and Book XX, Chapter X, Verse 1. ftn4 In Against Apion however, Josephus first wrote "seventy" in Book I, Chapter 19 §132, ftn5 but just two chapters later in the same book he wrote "fifty" (Book I, Chapter 21 §154 ftn6 )! Why is that? Is the last reference to "fifty" as reliable as the previous usage of "seventy"? What is the context of the "fifty"? As to why, first it must be known that Against Apion was written to the Greeks after Antiquities of the Jews to defend it. Perhaps he was aware of secular chronology leaving only fifty years for the desolation, and was pandering to both biblical and secular chronology. As to the reliability of this "fifty years" anomaly, on page 71 of Rolf Furuli's book Persian Chronology and the Length of the Babylonian Exile of the Jews ftn7 we find: "Some manuscripts of Josephus give a different number than 50 years here [in Against Apion I, 21 §154], but both Eusebius and Syncellus in their quotes from Josephus use 50." -
Jeffro
More startlingly poor argumentation...
Why is there so much emphasis on Nebuchadnezzar, but never the person who is crucial in the starting point of the entire prophecy?
Nabopolassar never made a seige against Jerusalem. When Jeremiah warned about the coming calamity affecting Jerusalem the 70 years had already started, but the first Babylonian king to affect Jerusalem would be Nebuchadnezzar. Nabopolassor was old and ill even before Nebuchadnezzar took the throne (and for practical purposes Nebuchadnezzar was already king). When Nebuchadnezzar actually first demanded tribute from Jerusalem in February 604BCE, Nabopolassar was already dead.
Jeremiah notes that the seventy years would be a period when "all the nations" serve "the king of Babylon" rather than naming Nebuchadnezzar. There was no need to mention Nabopolassor's action from 4 years' prior when warning that Jerusalem would experience the calamity (the 'cup'), which affected different nations at different times. Ethos' confusion about this issue is because he is required by JW thinking to associate the 70 years (a fixed period during which all the nations were subject to Babylon, which ended in 539) and the calamity (Babylonian conquests of different nations with different starting points).
It is not illogical to inquire the likehood that something occurred. The 70-year prophecy being one of the most critical prophecies in the Old Testament, taking into account the substantial historical references to Babylonian places, kings, princes, and practices from this time period, along with the prophecy being repeatedly explained and connected byseveral OT writers and not a few classical historians, make the probability of the crucial starting point going unmentioned, undocumented, and/or overlooked by person after person inherently unlikely.
The claim that the 70 years is "one of the most critical prophecies" here is a non sequitur (aside from the fact that it's a subjective opinion anyway). Whilst the '70 year' 'prophecy' came to be considered significant, that notion doesn't require that Jeremiah would have written anything in particular on that basis.
On a separate note, I'm also getting a little bored of Ethos' approach of 'proof by verbosity', coupled with the quite unprofessional use of font size and colour.
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Jeffro
Book XI, Chapter I, Verse 1: "God commiserated the captivity and calamity of these poor people, according as he had foretold to them by Jeremiah the prophet, before the destruction of the city, that after they had served Nebuchadnezzar and his posterity, and after they had undergone that servitude seventy years , he would restore them again to the land of their fathers, and they should build their temple, and enjoy their ancient prosperity."
Again the servitude connected directly with the exile and the restoration of God's people to their homeland. Too bad it says Jeremiah foretells the 'captivity' and thus the 'servitude' BEFORE the destruction of the city, which indicates that the servitude began AFTER the city's destruction. Jeremiah can't foretell something that had already 'started'. 609 just doesn't work here even if it said 50 years. If this should be revised to 50 years, your chronology falls flat.Again Ethos attempts the red herring of simply changing this "seventy" to "fifty", even though Josephus alludes to Jeremiah 29:10. Apples and oranges.
Josephus clearly states that before the destruction of the city(587BCE), Jeremiah told exiles already in Babylon (594BCE) that "they" (the people already in Babylon) would be in "servitude seventy years".
If the 70 years applied to exile rather than " the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination " (Isaiah's Prophecy, p. 253), then it would have to have started in 597BCE (or 617BCE in the JWs' parallel universe), so the JW chronology is wrong anyway. And yet Ethos still misses the point.
(Yes, the terrible formatting is intended satirically.)
