never a jw, I've re-posted your table here:
Hope you don't mind. The more, the merrier
Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals
by Ethos 529 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Jeffro
Antiquities of the Jews, Book XI, I states
Ethos continues to rely on figures that Josephus' provided earlier in his writings, despite the fact that Josephus later wrote that fifty years is actually correct, and that "[Berossus' accounts which are consistent with the modern Neo-Babylonian chronology] agree with the true histories in our books."
Ethos also continues to ignore the fact that Josephus also specifically indicated a period of 182.5 years from the fall of Israel (722BCE) until the first year of Cyrus (539BCE).
(Josephus counts accession years. Further detail in an earlier post)
It's hilarious, and a little sad, that Ethos' entire world view relies on a "possible" date that's "not conclusive", particularly since the date he needs is wrong.
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AnnOMaly
But AlanF, Jeffro, AnnoMaly and others will not accept this. In fact, they all maintain that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/586 BCE. Now make a mental note that Cyrus first regnal year is from Nisan 538 to Nisan 537. (Mar/April) Count 70 years from the destruction of Jerusalem and this will bring you to 517 BCE. Does not work.
Losing patience with you, Ethos. How many times has it been stated to you that BABYLON's 70 years, or the 70 years of the nations' servitude to Babylon, that Jeremiah talked about finished in 539 BCE? How many times has it been explained to you, using texts from Ezra, Haggai and Zechariah, that the temple itself remained devastated until 515 BCE? Why will those fundamentals not sink into that thick skull of yours?
Now, you have objected to AlanF's timeline because you believe it is based on conjecture. Why have you not yet provided a timeline of your own, pointing out the month that you believe Cyrus issued the decree? We know why, don't we? It's because (to use your own wording), the "solid evidence for 537" is "not conclusive" but only "a possible date." Your own preferred date is based on no more than CONJECTURE and you know it!
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Ethos
Your Josephus revision argument has already been examined and it doesnt work and makes your own chronology fail, so your appeal to Josephus is fallacious. The 181.2 year argument is immaterial since I dont hold Josephus to be infallible. ALL dates in the Bible require conjecture since we must use secular data. The depth of solidity depends on the EXTENT of conjecture required. AlanF's date requires too much conjecture AND it contradicts his primary source. Notice I've only argued 537 is a possible date, as all my sources show it is not something as definite as the fall of Babylon. I cannot believe I have to qualify this statement for people who have been debating chronology for years. 537 is solid, but we are never given absolute dates in the Bible so therefore it requires assumption and conjecture to pinpoint what exact month and year some things happened. 537 is not all important to me, why would it be?
You can continue all the strawmen you want. 538 BC has been shown to be in error. Context has made it thorougly obvious what was implied by servitude. Ezra and Jeremiah's plain interpretations contradict your 49 year sabbath and faux devastation time interval. Numerous historians and scholars agree that the Bible says 70 years of exile. And 537 is not something the JWs came up with, many many scholars agree its a possible date. Maybe you shouldnt copy people's argunents blindly and you wouldnt have to be shown erroneous time and time again.
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AnnOMaly
537 is solid, but we are never given absolute dates in the Bible so therefore it requires assumption and conjecture to pinpoint what exact month and year some things happened. ...
... 538 BC has been shown to be in error.
Please stop ... ... my sides are hurting!
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Jeffro
Thank you for proving my point, that the servitude or subjection to Babylon as a world power was not just something that signified Babylon being the dominant power for 70 years.
No such point has been proven at all. The Bible shows that the opposite is the case.
'All the nations' were subject to Babylon as a world power for 70 years, yet it is somehow worse to be subservient to Babylon depending on what country you reside in.
Jeremiah 25:8-11 states unequivocally that all the nations would serve Babylon for 70 years. But whilst all the nations were in servitude, things were worse for those that did not submit to that servitude.
Jeremiah 27:8 indicates that (during the 70 years), nations that don't submit to Babylon's 'yoke' would suffer more than those that did. Jeremiah 27:11 indicates that the nations that submit (e.g. by paying the required tributes) would be allowed to "rest upon its ground", so their servitude to Babylon would be relatively light.
The siege in 598BCE that resulted in the main exile in 597BCE was a result of Jehoiakim's refusal to pay tribute. (2 Kings 24:1) Specifically, from 604 until 601, Jehoiakim had paid the required tributes, but after three years he rebelled, after he heard that Nebuchadnezzar went to war again with Egypt (late 601BCE), with whom Jehoiakim had made an alliance. 2 Kings 24:2 indicates that various marauder bands were then sent against Jerusalem, up until the siege itself. 2 Kings is in agreement with lines 6 to 13 on the reverse of BM21946 about these facts.
Hmmm, why is that? Is that because the servitude involved MORE than just a general subjection?
Yes (though I won't be trapped by semantics in your use of servitude in place of the more accurate exile). Keep reading Jeremiah 27:8-11 (yes, that's 27, not 25) until you understand this.
You unwittingly admit, that the servitude in Babylon, would be more severe than the servitude in Judea.
Nothing 'unwitting' about it. Have you ever read the Bible?
This is like saying: the servitude to America as a world power is WORSE in Australia, than it is in China.
Actually, it's more like saying servitude to China would be worse in China than it is in Australia.
That makes zero sense.
It makes perfect sense, and it's what is specifically stated in Jeremiah chapter 27.
But if the servitude implied SLAVERY, LABOR, HARSH TREATMENT, EXILE as Jeremiah so eloquently noted, then of course it would be worse for them in Babylon. You have only solidified my argument with your statement.
According to Jeremiah 27:8-11, exile (a possible outcome for different nations at different times) was the explicitly stated punishment for not submitting to Babylon's dominance during the 70 years (a period of fixed start and end).
Thank you.
You're really not very good at this.
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Jeffro
Ethos:
The 181.2 year argument is immaterial since I dont hold Josephus to be infallible.
181.2? Anyway...
Earlier in this thread (page 13) I said:
I also note that the apologist has stayed well away from my comments about Josephus' reference to 182.5 years in Antiquities of the Jews, Book X from the fall of the 10-tribe kingdom (722BCE) to the reign of Cyrus (539BCE)*.
*Established previously that Josephus counts accession years in this book.
Now, Ethos could attempt to cast doubt on this period by suggesting that I pointed out that Josephus got the 70 years wrong [that Josephus is 'not infallible']. However, such an attempt would fall flat on its face, because this figure being wrong would require that an independent error by Josephus just happens to make the chronology of his account different from JW chronology by exactly 20 years.
It is not a co-incidence that the Watch Tower Society's chronology is at odds with Josephus, independent contemporary Babylonian records and independent Egyptian historical records all by 20 years.
*** it-1 p. 415 Captivity ***
In 742 B.C.E. the Assyrian army under Shalmaneser V besieged Samaria.*** it-1 p. 450 Chronology ***
The difference between the above [WTS] dates and those generally assigned by modern historians amounts to as much as a century or more for the Exodus and then narrows down to about 20 years by Pharaoh Necho’s time*** w86 11/1 p. 6 A Dream Reveals How Late It Is ***
Some people argue that even if the “seven times” are prophetic and even if they last 2,520 years, Jehovah’s Witnesses are still mistaken about the significance of 1914 because they use the wrong starting point. Jerusalem, they claim, was destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E., not in 607 B.C.E. If true, this would shift the start of “the time of the end” by some 20 years.That pesky 'twenty years' just keeps getting in the way...
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Jeffro
Ethos:
Josephus also states in Antiquities of the Jews, Book X, IX, verse 7 "All Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years."Now I know some will say that this should be revised to 50. Even though Josephus already connected the 70 year exile to the 70 year captivity, I will assume this should say 50. Now counting 50 years from Tammuz of 587 takes us to Tammuz of 537. This means all of Judea and Jerusalem were desolated until at the earliest Tammuz of 537. But AlanF/Jeffro dogmatically proclaim that the Jews returned in Elul 538 B.C. Josephus is either saying the city was completely desolate for 70 years or 50. Which is it? The Jews couldn't have returned in 538, if Josephus' numbers tell us the city was desolated until at LEAST the summer of 537. Here, again, his dependence of Josephus crumbles and causes his conjectures to become even more ridiculous.
Another tedious strawman.
As I said on page 13 of this thread:
Though Josephus, in some of his earlier writings, incorrectly associates the exile with the 70 years, that doesn't mean simply changing all the 70s to 50s...
If I have a bag that contains apples and oranges but it has been incorrectly labelled as just APPLES, once I separate the different kinds of fruit into separate bags, I don't label both bags as ORANGES. -
AnnOMaly
Nothing really to add. I just wanted to re-post this comment from Ethos because it is a classic.
537 is solid, but we are never given absolute dates in the Bible so therefore it requires assumption and conjecture to pinpoint what exact month and year some things happened. ...
Love it. Pure comedy gold.
(OUTLAW where are you? We need an appropriate picture for this one.)
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Phizzy
This thread from poster Ultimate Reality is all a person has to read to realise that the WT simply have no leg to stand on in this matter:
"Scholastic Dishonesty - June 2012 Awake - Jewish Exile Timeline"
To use such blatant dishonest quoting, which equals telling blatant lies, shows that the WT has no case, they would have no need to do this despicable thing if they did.
The WT truly is an "Organization founded on lies and maintained by lies".
