Great link, JT!!
Thanks
ISP
When I called Patterson yesterday.....
by LDH 38 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
terafera
I borrowed these from quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com, thought they fit the situation and how jw's believe:
*** w57 5/1 284 Trust Your Proved, Faithful Brothers ***
We will realize that Jehovah knows what is going on in his organization, and
if he is willing to permit it, who are we to insist it should be different? If we
really have faith, we will know that if it is wrong he will straighten it out
eventually, and we are far safer inside his organization even with these minor
difficulties than we would be on the outside where only chaos and
destruction await us.*** w83 1/15 27 Armed for the Fight Against Wicked Spirits ***
Fight Against Independent Thinking
... Yet there are some who point out that the organization has had to make
adjustments before, and so they argue: "This shows that we have to make up
our own mind on what to believe." This is independent thinking. Why is
it so dangerous? 20 Such thinking is an evidence of pride.~~~~~
So really it shows how these people respond this way..they are being fed this constantly. I know myself, when I asked my mother if it might not be the Truth, she said that even if it wasnt, it protected us and did no harm. I dont really agree with that statement, in full.
-
Pathofthorns
I find it pointless for the most part arguing over beliefs with JWs because most don't know their beliefs, they just know that "the society is always right" and if they are wrong they just don't care.
You cannot win when logic and reason go out the window and you are dealing with brainwashed people.
But thanks for sharing your experience. It was pathetic yet funny, because I had a bit of a laugh imagining you unhesitatingly dialing up Bethel and having to roll your eyes at the braindead stupidity of their response.
There's nothing more frustrating than the feeling that you are surrounded by idiots.
Path
-
Grunt
First, hello to all, it has been a while since I posted here. It always feels good to come back and see the intelligence and fervor of my comrades in arms as we engage the Tower in a struggle for our loved ones. God, that sounds like a recruiting poster when I read back over it! Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that when I read your experiences and see how well you have put things and with what energy you too are struggling, it makes me feel much better about my own plight and about the efforts of others like us around the world. Man, that didn't help much. Forget it. LDH, I have had the same experience. I am trying to get my family back also. I like being on the same side of this thing as you are because like you, I push and try to show the facts. It cost me a daughter though, so be careful. Like JT's link says, it won't happen quick or easy no matter how glaring the proof. I will tell you one deal I had with my dad, much like your own.
My dad, God bless him, is quite a guy. I have always admired him because he always went his own way and tried to do what he thought was right, whether conventional or not. To give you an example, he was a heli-arc welder on the missile sites out west, became convinced they weren't building them all for nothing, quit a great job working on them and moved to a remote area in the South where he thought in case of nuclear conflagration we would be safest, bought some land and built a bomb shelter. He didn't worry about what the neighbors thought, (bomb shelters were rare in backwoods Alabama) he did what he thought was right for the family. Well, Dad got involved with the Witnesses though family, the trinity, not killing and hell-fire and all that were just too much to overcome. Once he got convinced then he got in, he is pioneering as I write this. Still, he kept his own head to a certain degree, wouldn't refuse to shake hands with my cousins when they were disfellowshipped, still talks to me and lets me stay with them and spend a lot of time there with he and Mom when I have it. This last despite his knowing I am out and against the Society though I took my family and moved before my attitudes could get me disfellowshipped or da'd. I'm glad I did as it saved Mom and Dad the stigma of having me Disfellowshipped (except by my daughter the zealot). Anyway, Dad is convinced he is right, and always brings it up for which I am grateful, I guess. Unless one day I step on his toes too hard and lose them. I need to walk more softly with Dad. Last discussion we had went like this. Sitting in the living room in his home after a giant southern meal with several meats and umpteen vegetables, Mom and my wife cleaning up in the kitchen. Out of the blue...."Son, you've got to think about what you are doing, who else you are affecting and get back into the fold." me-"Dad, knowing the pain the Organization causes and some of the important things they have lied about, I couldn't do it." him-"Well, you have to look at the big picture, this is the only org. on the earth teaching the same thing around the world." me"Teaching a lie around the world is not impressive, you are just misleading more people. That is bad, not good. The Catholics do the same thing, so do the Mormons." him-"What is the big thing that bothers you?" me-"Remember that you brought this up, OK? You are welcome to believe what you want and I don't want to lose you and mom, I've lost my little girl for saying much less to her than I have already said to you." him-"You read that book written so long ago with the stuff on the pyramids and you can't forget it even though it is no longer relevant." me-"That bothered me and got me looking, and I found a lot. We've had this conversation before. If I had to say right now though, I'd say the single biggest thing is the mediatorship. The Society saying that Jesus is not the mediator for everyone, only for the 144,000." him-"We don't believe that. It says he is the only mediator for all men." me-"Yeah, well, I am glad you see it that way. I agree, but the Society says it is only for the 144,000 and that in fact they wind up "rendering" the ransom sacrifice during the 1000 year reign for everyone else. They put themselves in Christ's place or at least between Christ and you. Look here, you've got the bound volumes lets look it up." We look it up in the questions from the readers, and I point out the brackets they put in saying [not all men] which reverses the meaning of the verse. me-"See Dad? They twist it completely. They make themselves co-mediators when the scripture says there is one mediator and that is Christ." him- silence, reads and re-reads, then in matter of fact voice "OK, so they are all mediators. What are YOU doing to promote the work? I guess if they are the high priests they can be mediators too. What are you doing to help your neighbor learn about Jehovah?" me-"Dad, you just swallowed a giant lie, you just reversed your beliefs that quick? Now they can all be mediators, when you said yourself a few minutes ago that there was only one mediator?" him-"Son, they have people, smart people, up there studying the bible all the time. They have people who are experts in languages and who have Jehovah's Spirit on them and a special understanding. How did you learn all you know? From them. Now, if they say they will be mediators then I believe them. This is the only Organization doing Jehovah's will and wearing His Name on this earth, and you are rejecting them. Now what are you going to do to correct that? Think about your wife and kids. Think about your duty to help your neighbor, who else are you going to join to really serve Jehovah? Who else has the fruitage? No one." me-"Dad, if there is a group in the world that lacks the fruitage, it is this one. My own daughter won't have me in her home because I asked a question she couldn't answer and because I dare to question this group. Not for any sin mentioned in the bible, but for questioning this bunch. She shared my letters with her elders without asking me and they told her it was a conscience deal but ADVISED her to "limit her association" with me. She cut her mom and me out of her life. I live fifty miles away and haven't been invited to her home in the three years since she "changed our relationship" as she so lovingly put it. They twisted her into shunning me and she threw her mom in as part of the bargain even though she'd never even been a witness. They not only don't love their neighbor, they don't show love to even their parents which violates everything in the bible. Look at Matthew chapt.15 and see what Christ said about that. If you are willing to swallow a lie and love it then there are some scriptures you need to look at again real close. I've lost my little girl. I don't want to lose you and Mom. Let's drop it before they (my mom and my wife) come in from the kitchen. Think about the mediatorship thing, study it some. Don't let them feed you this lie." him-"There is only one group, this is it. Name another free from prejudice and willing to die rather than kill. You look at what you are doing and remember that you are supposed to join yourself together with other believers, we are the other believers. Don't reject the rule to come together with other believers. Are you doing that?" me-"Yeah, Dad, I think I do it enough to count through conversations at work and on the net, and I did just try to talk to you about believing the truth, and not just what men tell you. Let's drop it but look this up and really study it. Read all the places in the Gospels where it is talking about the Last Supper, see that you have to partake of the blood to be in the Covenant, it is the Blood of the Covenant. If you aren't in the covenant then Christ isn't your mediator, and there are no other mediators, read Timothy again for yourself, there is ONE mediator between god and man, not a bunch"
I ended the conversation there as I will not talk about it with or in front of my mom. She deals all from the heart, not the head and as I said, I don't want to lose them. Mom and Dad are and have been great parents and are now nearly 80. I couldn't stand not to be able to help them and be around them in their old age, not just for myself but because they need me and will need me even more soon. The next time I am around Dad he will probably ask me what I am doing to identify myself and am I talking to my neighbors, that I'd better assemble myself with the Witnesses as told to and we will go around again. Dad erases what he doesn't want to hear. He and mom are old, all their friends are in their congregation, today he is probably standing in a parking lot in a small town in Alabama arguing about hell-fire and the trinity with any Baptist or Pentecostal he can get to stop. Hard worker, great Dad, had 18 acres of land and a new home paid for at 35, always worked hard and helped anyone who asked, great husband and grandfather, but swallowed whole by a group of liars in Brooklyn. At least he hasn't let them cut me out of his and Mom's life. I love them both with all my heart and wish I could pull them and my daughter and her husband out of the cesspool of lies they have fallen into. They are too good to be a part of the filth in Brooklyn. -
waiting
Hi Grunt,
I enjoyed reading your posts....but paragraphs could've helped my comprehension, as it's limited. I understand about old jw parents, my husband's mom is 81, a true believer.
"They're just imperfect men, but it's still Jehovah's Organization. I know I'm doing the right thing."
Smacks of same fervor as during the VietNam War "It's my country - right or wrong."
waiting
-
terafera
Hi Grunt, nice to meet you!
Your post made me sad..its painfully obvious how much you love your parents and how you would do anything for them. How I wish they would open their minds a little more....or their hearts. Its so hard to..
I wish the best for you. I'm sorry about your daughter too. How are you holding up?
-
LDH
Grunt your Dad said
-"Son, they have people, smart people, up there studying the bible all the time. They have people who are experts in languages and who have Jehovah's Spirit on them and a special understanding. How did you learn all you know? From them. Now, if they say they will be mediators then I believe them. This is the only Organization doing Jehovah's will and wearing His Name on this earth, and you are rejecting them. Now what are you going to do to correct that? Think about your wife and kids. Think about your duty to help your neighbor, who else are you going to join to really serve Jehovah? Who else has the fruitage? No one."
This is so sad, they really believe others are 'smarter' than them and should be ina position to tell them what to believe!! SAD SAD SAD.WELL guys here is the follow up letter I got via e-mail this morning from the same family:
Dear Lisa,
Any comments?
This is one of the hardest letters I have ever had to
write since you are the sister I never had. But none
the less it has to be done.I have told you I'M getting my life in order with
Jehovah, by doing this you know as well as I do that I
am not supposed to have any dealings with
disfellowshipped ones and unfortunately you fall into
this category. We both know (whether or not you agree
is a different story), that Jehovah discipline those
he loves as brought out at Hebrews 12:6. It also tells
us at Proverbs 15:9 that those not heeding that
discipline will surely die.
Lisa this is a position I am not willing to be put in
by you or anyone else. I know Jehovah judges by our
pass deeds and acts as brought out in Jeremiah 17:10
and I do not want to be judges as one not heeding
Jehovah's wise counsel.So therefore I must break all lines of communicating
with you. I must admit that I thought you would have
come back to Jehovah by now, but I am not the judge
but your situation reminds of Jeremiah 5:3 where it
states that they have made their faces harder than a
crag.You also state the Jehovah's Organization is run by
Old Farts and a Token Nigger, but what you fail to
realize is Jehovah does not operate in color only be
fine works of faith. Also I'm sorry to say but by your
actions and words you definitely sound like an
apostate to me, due to the definition of the word
apostate.
Apostate- a withdrawal or abandonment of the true
cause, worship and service of God and hence an
abandonment of what one has previously professed and a
total desertion of principles of faith.
But once again I am not the judge and sincerely hope
that I am wrong.In closing I must once again say that I will not be
communicating with you in any way, so please do not
try to communicate because this is hard enough as it
is, I truly hope you will once again become in a
favorable state with Jehovah so we can communicate
again.I pray for you and your family that you have a change
of heart and come back to Jehovah before its too late.Love you
Lisa
Didn't know I was df'd class! -
Reborn2002
Yes I have a comment.
The family or individual who wrote you that letter is brainwashed and unwilling to open his or her eyes to the REAL Truth.
It is unfortunate, but just another example of the fact the JW organization divides families and lifelong friendships.
On another note, LDH, you will ALWAYS have a caring and loving friend in me.
When you leave the Borg, you make TRUE friends, friends who will not abandon you simply because you have a different belief.
PERSONAL WEBPAGE-
http://www.geocities.com/latinloverchicago/Jason1.html
FREELANCE ARTWORK FOR SALE-
http://www.geocities.com/latinloverchicago/JasonArtwork1.html -
Grunt
Waiting - I'm sorry about not putting in the paragraphs. I tend to start typing a little faster than my brain functions and frequently type far too much as well as forgetting the proper forms. I will do my best to keep them shorter and to make them a little easier to read.
Good to see your name again and I think you are right, it is a kind of blind religious jingoism just like nationalism. That has been proved in the court cases like the one in Washington State and others where they closed ranks with the child molesters against the victims. JT's site hits it on the mark I think. Survival above all else, sell off any friends, parents or relatives that threaten it. Completely selfish really. I wouldn't trade my loved ones for eternal life. How ironically fair that they are doing it all for nothing. Their only real reward is their own self-righteous smugness. The approving croaks of the other frogs in their mud-bound little pond which they think is an ocean. Wouldn't it be awful if they actually got something for such cruelty?Terafera - Nice to meet you too. As for my daughter, I took it pretty hard in the beginning, but I got real mad too which was a protection. We didn't deserve such treatment. My wife didn't get mad, she just got hurt. Still is. It is tough, but what can you do? I won't be emotionally blackmailed. If I was willing to spew lies and call evil good to stay close then I really wouldn't be much of a dad.
I am grateful that my parents didn't cut me out when my daughter did. Witnesses are being told it is for our good that they should "discipline" us. My daughter said it in her shunning letter, LDH's friend says it in hers. It is the party line. They take a lot on themselves, don't they?LDH - I am so sorry for the loss of your friend. What I tell myself is that with all the tens of thousands falling away each year maybe the ones I love will be among them. Maybe your friend will be. I hope so. When and if they do get free, I hope we can forgive them and get back to a real relationship. After the years of snubs and insults, of getting evil in return for good, it will take an effort to forget all of it.
Your friend's letter sounded remarkably like the one my daughter wrote me, only a lot warmer and more personal. Mine didn't even start with "dear" it was just "Dad." It was really just a business letter. Even ended it with "In summary this research has motivated me to make a change in our relationship." The gall. Writing something like that, so impersonal, to the man whose neck she hung from while he did chin-ups, the one who sold his motorcycle to buy her a piano, the one who used to buy her icecreams and snowcones and ask her about her day at school, The one who changed her diapers and rushed her to the hospital with croup and took her shopping for her prom dresses and gave her away at her wedding. She returned the keys to the car she had been borrowing for a year with the note saying I wasn't welcome in her home. Just plain "Dad" and "In Summary." In summary she has become a zombie who has sold her own heart for eternal life, shoved her mom and me away to curry favor with her real gods in Brooklyn and got cheated in the bargain. I suspect Watchtowers of being frigid enough to turn compassion to frost and hearts to icecubes. The more contact with Brooklyn, the colder you get. Once again, I am sorry for your loss and respect your attempts to help out your friend. There is hope. Here we are, we made it out. Let's keep opening the windows and turning on the lights. Maybe some will learn to love the light again. -
Latte
KEEPING GOD’S STANDARDS
W/T May 1 2002JEHOVAH HATES THE COURSE OF TREACHERY
Page 15.Para.7
Centuries before Malachi’s time, Jehovah has assigned the Levites to care for the tabernacle and later the temple and the sacred ministry. They were the teachers in the national of Israel. Fulfilling their assignment would of meant life and peace for them and the nation. (Numbers 3:5-8) Yet, the Levites lost the fear of God that they initially had. Thus Jehovah Told them:” You have turned aside from the way. You have caused many to stumble in the law. You have ruined the covenant of Levi….You were not keeping my ways.”(malachi 2:8,9) By their failure to teach the truth and by their poor example, the priests misled many Israelites, so Jehovah was rightly angry with them.
p.8
Let us not think that those priests merited sympathy and should have been pardoned because they were imperfect humans and could of not have been expected to keep God’s standards. The fact is that humans can keep God’s commands, for Jehovah does not expect of them what they cannot produce.Lisa, how I see it, is that they have no room to make mistakes, and should not view any incorrect teaching from the society as acceptable.(as the brother on the desk at bethel clearly did!) The quoted W/T is pretty clear on that….perhaps you could refer them to this article?
You/we have a very good reason for NOT tolerating any incorrect teaching from these men. Jehovah says so!
Hope that things get better
Latte
