non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens 546 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  myelaine

  dear Tammy...

  I believe the comparison is between jewish BELIEVING hearts and gentile BELIEVING hearts...

  you seem to suggest that God writes SOME of the law on SOME non-believing hearts that aren't "stony" ...but you have to understand that the spirit of the written law didn't just include justice and mercy(characteristics some non-believers do display)...it contained the certain unquestioning seperation of the people from the surrounding nations for holiness to God...they were chosen by God tobe seperated under the law from everyone else.

  that seperated "holiness to God" isn't written on the non-believers heart, at all, is it?...so thelaw isn't written on non-believers hearts...but it IS written in its entirety on a gentile believers heart. ie. seperated holiness to God, justice and mercy...because the spirit of the law IS kept by the same Spirit as Jesus Christ, Who fulfilled that law (but didn't do away with it).

  Scripture says that no one is justified by works of the law but by faith in God and Jesus Christ. Without faith in God it is impossible to please God. That is the impetus behind preaching the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. There are the saved and the lost...not the saved AND the saved by their own works apart from faith in God AND the lost. (though you seem to believe that you've found a "loop hole" in the book of revelation that completely skirts the issue of salvation IN Jesus Christ alone)

  That is why I suggest to you that the passage in matthew speaking about the sheep and the goats is talking about believers(warning them)...because though they had the law written on their hearts (both groups called Jesus Lord) both groups didn't fulfill the spirit of the law; that indwelling Spirit would have been urging them to "minister" to the needs of these people...just like Jesus did but, only the sheep who were led by that Spirit responded. The goats, though they professed Jesus as Lord, didn't allow themselves to be led by that Spirit...they had a "mind of their own"...like a stubborn goat. In this scripture there is agreement with what Jesus said about some who thought they were saved but are told to get away...Jesus never knew them.

  The bible itself is a tool inspired for ministry of the gospel, it isn't a tool to reassure non-believers they can be saved by good works.

  love michelle
• 

  unstopableravens

  knowsnothing- yes a lie is a lie and lying is a sin in yahwehs eyes. keep in mind just because something good comes from something bad does not change the definition of a lie and it is wrong in gods eyes. we all would hopefully agree that rape in bad, but if a women gets pregnet does it no longer a crime because a child now has life. no rape is a crime and lying is a sin.
• 

  PSacramento

  In regards to Paul and his view of Sin ( soem may say "original sin").

  Paul was addressing issues of sin as viewed by some jews and gentiles in his tim ( but not ALL).

  He was also heavily infulenced by the greek view of duality -material and non-material- that he was confronted with on regular basis and using that as a point of refernce, a common ground that he had with his audience.

  In regards to Romans chapter 7:

  Paul makes it clear that the key purpose of the Law was to put into words what IS sin and as such, the Law is vital.

  If one didn't have the Law, there would be no sin ( as he understood it) because all would be permissble.

  The Law was good and "spiritual" because it point to the errors of our flesh.

  Paul does go beyond that and echo what I aid earlier that sin is doing what we KNOW to be wrong ( the Law helping us to understand what we know):

  18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my (AH) flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For (AI) the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, (AJ) I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
• 

  PSacramento

  I believe the point of comparison is that while the Jews did according to the law the right thing, people that never saw that law also often do the right things. So it's written on hearts. I think it was just a way of co-opting some pretty common human traits that are good, making it appear as though this god put it there, when in reality, people of all regions share some moral commonalities, regardless of religion, and likely the product of natural selection.

  Very true, the issue is that they tended to hold those "correct views" in a very tribal manner, sort of "good for us but not for them".

  CHrist took that commonality, the golden rule is you want, and made it the STARTING point and not the "end result".
• 

  tec

  I believe the comparison is between jewish BELIEVING hearts and gentile BELIEVING hearts...

  Why do you believe that?

  you seem to suggest that God writes SOME of the law on SOME non-believing hearts that aren't "stony" ...but you have to understand that the spirit of the written law didn't just include justice and mercy(characteristics some non-believers do display)...it contained the certain unquestioning seperation of the people from the surrounding nations for holiness to God...they were chosen by God tobe seperated under the law from everyone else.

  The law would be written on anyone's heart... depending upon the nature of the heart. Hard-heart - can't write the law on it. But some have not so hard hearts... so that the law is there naturally; making them a law unto themselves. They do, by nature, the things that some need the written law to be able to do.

  that seperated "holiness to God" isn't written on the non-believers heart, at all, is it?...so thelaw isn't written on non-believers hearts...but it IS written in its entirety on a gentile believers heart. ie. seperated holiness to God, justice and mercy...because the spirit of the law IS kept by the same Spirit as Jesus Christ, Who fulfilled that law (but didn't do away with it).

  Extrapolation and interpretation. Everyone was a believer back then, in some god or another.

  Scripture says that no one is justified by works of the law but by faith in God and Jesus Christ. Without faith in God it is impossible to please God. That is the impetus behind preaching the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. There are the saved and the lost...not the saved AND the saved by their own works apart from faith in God AND the lost. (though you seem to believe that you've found a "loop hole" in the book of revelation that completely skirts the issue of salvation IN Jesus Christ alone)

  No loophole. Mainstream doesn't teach this, and so I understand why you do not believe it.

  Christ may know some who do not know him. There are numerous passages that refer to those whom Christ knows by their deeds.... but who perhaps did not know Him. Including those who will not lose their reward even for giving a glass of cold water to one of the least of those who belong to Him. Or for feeding the poor, or visiting those imprisoned, etc.

  Do you truly think that one who abides by those things is going to hell? That they chose such a fate? Even Paul says that he does not judge those outside of 'christians', but you do?

  You already make an exception Michelle, for those who have not had a chance to get to know Him... why do you make even that exception?

  The bible itself is a tool inspired for ministry of the gospel, it isn't a tool to reassure non-believers they can be saved by good works.

  The bible is a tool to help witness to Christ, as it does contain some witnesses to Him. Using it to teach that Christ and God will send people to hell, no matter that they might have done good to others, is twisting it to serve another purpose... other than to share good news and truth. That has been one of the greatest teachings that turn people away from God and Christ; rather than turn people TO God and Christ.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  Terry

  The life we get from Christ is going to our death fully expecting it is not THE end.

  The thought, the conviction is numinous and transcendent even if it is not supernatural and actual.

  What better way to meet our end than absent of terror and futility and nothingness?
• 

  NewChapter

  knowsnothing- yes a lie is a lie and lying is a sin in yahwehs eyes. keep in mind just because something good comes from something bad does not change the definition of a lie and it is wrong in gods eyes. we all would hopefully agree that rape in bad, but if a women gets pregnet does it no longer a crime because a child now has life. no rape is a crime and lying is a sin

  I don't think rape and lies should be compared. I mean, I know it really sounded good to people with the whole Christian view, right/wrong, good/ bad, black/white, God/Satan thingy, but it is not a logical conclusion. I don't lie. It's not because some book or god told me not to lie, but I find it uncomfortable and unhealthy for relationships. I also want people to trust me. And yet, as a free moral agent, I am able to evaluate a situation and decide on the best course of action. I DO think that outcome matters, unlike the black and white thinker. What if a lie saves a woman from being raped? Is the lie bad? Would the rape be better? That's the problem with giving up your own will to follow the will of an ancient culture that didn't even follow its own writings. What if a lie protects someone from harm? Is that lie bad? Would the harm be better?

  This is nothing more than a passing of responsiblity. Gee, I'm sorry you got your face pounded in, but I really couldn't lie. And the thing is, I don't think there are many Christians out there that would choose honesty over protection, but they give it a lot of lip service. I don't believe in sin. I believe in consequences. I look at every situation, and I decide what the consequences of each action would be. I am free to do that, because I don't believe in sin.

  I can't think of one scenario where the benefits of rape would outweigh the consequences. Well there is one, but that was a freaky book I read, and is unlikely to happen in real life.

  The rape analogy would be amusing, if it wasn't so horrible. Because the bible is full of condoned rape and unequal power distribution that makes sex little more than rape. But that's all okay, cuz God said so.

  What if I'm wrong? Well then I guess that means there is a god out there that orders genocide, allows for rape, and punishes the liar. I guess that means I am little more than property. I suppose it means that half the people I know would have been stoned to death or even more of them will burn in Hell--or whatever your flavor of punishment is. I suppose I would be in Dom/Sub relationship, and I didn't even get the benefit of agreeing to it. It would mean that this god, like an abusive spouse, shows how much he loves by brutalizing those bound to him. It would suck big time. Happily, I'm not wrong.
• 

  PSacramento

  The bible condones rape? I mean says that rape is good and correct or at least acceptable?

  Where?

  The bible has causal Laws on how to deal with rape under various circumstances, not great ones mind you but certianlu better than their counter-parts.

  But condoning rape?
• 

  cofty

  The OT permits kidnapping virgin prisoners of war - having killed all their relatives - and giving them the option of slave or wife.

  That does not amount to consensual sex.
• 

  PSacramento

  The OT permits kidnapping virgin prisoners of war - having killed all their relatives - and giving them the option of slave or wife.

  That does not amount to consensual sex.

  True and I assume you mean:

  Numbers 31:25-40

  25 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 26 “You and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the fathers’ households of the congregation take a count of the booty that was captured, both of man and of animal; 27 and (A) divide the booty between the warriors who went out to battle and all the congregation. 28 (B) Levy a tax for the Lord from the men of war who went out to battle, one in five hundred of the persons and of the cattle and of the donkeys and of the sheep; 29 take it from their half and give it to Eleazar the priest, as an offering to the Lord . 30 From the sons of Israel’s half, you shall take one drawn out of every fifty of the persons, of the cattle, of the donkeys and of the sheep, from all the animals, and give them to the Levites who (C) keep charge of the tabernacle of the Lord .” 31 Moses and Eleazar the priest did just as the Lord had commanded Moses.

  32 Now the booty that remained from the spoil which the men of war had plundered was 675,000 sheep, 33 and 72,000 cattle, 34 and 61,000 donkeys, 35 and of human beings, of the women who had not known man intimately, all the persons were 32,000.

  36 The half, the portion of those who went out to war, was as follows: the number of sheep was 337,500, 37 and the Lord’s levy of the sheep was 675; 38 and the cattle were 36,000, from which the Lord’s levy was 72; 39 and the donkeys were 30,500, from which the Lord’s levy was 61; 40 and the human beings were 16,000, from whom the Lord’s levy was 32 persons.

  This should also be read in light of:

  Deuteronomy 21:10-14

  New American Standard Bible (NASB)

  Domestic Relations

  10 “When you go out to battle against your enemies, and ( A ) the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive, 11 and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, 12 then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall ( B ) shave her head and trim her nails. 13 She shall also remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and ( C ) mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not mistreat her, because you have ( D ) humbled her.