non believers what if your wrong ? (page 23)

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When God is criticized for displaying His wrath in the OT, most of that criticism is centered on the time of Joshua and the Israelites entering the Promised Land. As a nation, Israel had entered into a covenant with God, which bound all of the nation to abide by God's standards of holiness (see Deut 29:10-15). Even in modern warfare do not huge numbers of innocent people suffer death or harm ?

At the heart of this question is the consistency of God's character.

Is God's character is limited to either mercy or judgment but He cannot display both ?

Why not allow the time and space for the complete manifestation of God's grace ?

The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. (Ex 34:6-7)
The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes." (Hos 3:1)

I believe God's nature and character includes both mercy and love together with anger and judgment

A time to love and a time to hate. A time for war and a time for peace. ~~~ Eccl 3:8

Here is the example of the innoculation I was referring to. It also shifts the goal posts and distracts from the original points. This isn't about a time but a question of character. For instance, if we are dealing with a serial killer that has not killed in 20 years, do we then just dismiss it? Do we look at this person and say, Oh, well, sure, he killed, dismembered and ate 200 vicitims, but that was a different time and place and he seems loving now? No. We don't do that. The best test of character is not when things are wonderful, but when things are not.

We do it even today. Are you familiar with an abusive spouse/boyfriend telling the woman that no one will ever love them like they do? I actually know about thiss happening several times to real people in my real life. They punch them in the face, kick them, rape them, but no one will EVER love them like they do. And others become complicit when they say things like, 'well he's a good provider, father, friend." You see?

Mercy and Love. Anger and Judgement.

So tell me. When his law says that a rape victim can be purchased from her father and forced to marry the rapist for the rest of her life---would that be mercy and love, or anger and judgement? You support this, Caliber? You really support a god that would have such a disgusting law? I think a little bit of our humanity chinks away as we try to make these things okay, and find ourselves defending them. Because it is not what we would do, and doing so means supressing part of our compassion and empathy. There is no other way. We must simply detach from the humanity of it, refuse to see it through the eyes of the victim, and somehow make such barbaric behavior okay.

Yes, there is the issue of war. But this god had an especially brutal brand of war. All war is brutal, but the US doesn't take female captives from their land and force them to marry American soldiers. I'm not dismissing the US here, I'm simply drawing a contrast. No, war was not enough for this god. He found it necessary to focus on the weakest of his victims and victimize them for the rest of their lives.

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christ alone-thanks i wonder if the stats for the same for other groups like excatholics or mormons or even exmuslims

I read a chart that said ex-JW's are more likely to become atheist/agnostic and ex-Mormons are more likely to remain spiritual, but steer away from organized religion. I don't know how accurate the chart was, but it's a starting point.

PSacramento

There is no way to take our "modern morals" and look back at some OT passages and NOT be distrubed by them.

And rightly so.

unstopableravens

new chapter you can count on it i will look it all up.

smmcroberts

There is no way to take our "modern morals" and look back at some OT passages and NOT be distrubed by them.
And rightly so.

Thanks for that admission, PS. But I don't think it's just "modern" morals. I think people knew way back then that it was wrong to rape and murder. That's why they had to have religion to force people to do these actions against their better nature. That's why the prophets/priests or whoever claimed to speak for God had to specifically say "Let not your heart feel sorry; show no mercy! God commands it!"

And that is why I say that religion has been, and continues to be, one of the primary institutions that subverts empathy and leads people to commit atrocities.

PSacramento

Thanks for that admission, PS. But I don't think it's just "modern" morals. I think people knew way back then that it was wrong to rape and murder. That's why they had to have religion to force people to do these actions against their better nature. That's why the prophets/priests or whoever claimed to speak for God had to specifically say "Let not your heart feel sorry; show no mercy! God commands it!"

That's why I put that in quotation marks.

I do think that there was an universal notion of "right and wrong", it wasn't always applied evenly and tend to be very tribal in the past ( and even now in some places/cases) but it was there.

And that is why I say that religion has been, and continues to be, one of the primary institutions that subverts empathy and leads people to commit atrocities

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All ideologies are influenced by Man, regardles of where they MAY have come from and as such, all ideologies are subject to being "perverted" by Man.

Christ was very clear in how we are to act for those we love AND for those we hate and it was NEVER return hate with hate or oppress or anthing negative BUT look at the horrifc acts some have commited "in his name".

Sad really.

likeabird

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vdCA5xAsw8I

smmcroberts

Christ was very clear in how we are to act for those we love AND for those we hate and it was NEVER return hate with hate or oppress or anthing negative BUT look at the horrifc acts some have commited "in his name".

Some of his words may have conveyed this, but sometimes his actions contradicted the idea. The Bible relates that he engaged in verbal and physical abuse against his enemies. So is it: "Do as I say: not as I do?" And should we then throw out the idea of WWJD?

Also, his frequent mention of hell-fire for unbelievers prompted some Christians to lovingly torture heretics in order to save their souls from damnation. So here again, religion [in this case based on just the supposed words of Jesus] subverted empathy and led to atrocities.

caliber

There is no way to take our "modern morals" and look back at some OT passages and NOT be distrubed by them.

And rightly so.

likewise many medical practices of centures ago are viewed as foolish, disgusting and barbaric ....

hindsight is 20/20.

The old Mosaic Law versus the new Law of Grace

Precedents takes time to establish through human experience and hardship it seems .

Is sin hurtful because it is forbidden; but or it is forbidden because it is hurtful ?

What is meant by the Old law being a tutor leading to the Christ ?

PSacramento

Some of his words may have conveyed this, but sometimes his actions contradicted the idea. The Bible relates that he engaged in verbal and physical abuse against his enemies. So is it: "Do as I say: not as I do?" And should we then throw out the idea of WWJD?

His teachings of how to treat even your enemies were quite clear, see Matthew 5.

Did he go toe-to-toe with some Pharisees that He viewed as distorting the Word of God and leading people down the wrong path, of course He did.

Also, his frequent mention of hell-fire for unbelievers prompted some Christians to lovingly torture heretics in order to save their souls from damnation. So here again, religion [in this case based on just the supposed words of Jesus] subverted empathy and led to atrocities.

Jesus never preached "hell fire" for unbeleivers, but warned of eternal punishment for those that rejected the HS.

To reject something one must first KNOW it, an unbeleiver would never have know the HS to begin with.

That some people took His words and pervereted them for the sake of their own politcal power base just goes to prove that ANY ideology can be perverted by man.

non believers what if your wrong ?

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