by Christ Alone 317 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
According to Hawking, Ellis, and Penrose, not only space but time had a beginning. If God existed in only one dimension of time, then He would have had to have been created at one point. The Bible says God was not created, but has existed from eternity past to eternity future. The Bible also suggests God created time and was acting before time began
Most reasonable people would call that a problem with the Bible, not a problem with Physics.
Biblically God is not bound by space or time. 1Kings 8:27 says that the universe (and hence space in general) cannot contain God.
That's not what that scripture says.
However, the Bible describes God as knowing all that we do. (1 Kings 8:39)
That's not what that scripture says, either.
The Bible also suggests God created time and was acting before time began (1Cor 2:7)
Also not what that scripture says. In fact, THAT scripture talks about destiny, something you are arguing against.
Why is it that Christians so often quote scripture to prove a point and it either doesn't say what they claim or says the exact opposite of the point they are trying to make?
And that's why I think my Lincoln assassination example fits. If I KNEW that Booth was going to assassinate Lincoln, would he be fooling himself thinking that he had a choice?
Ok, so 1) time travel isn't real 2) your traveling backwards in time cased a ripple of anti-time to explode backwards, causing booth to get the flu and decide to stay home rather than show up at the theater that night.
I think this is why my example show that using made up, fictional examples using scienc fiction will NEVER prove your point.
How do you change the definition from knowing something to actually making the choice FOR you?
It's called having kids. I KNOW they don't want to eat their green beans, but I KNOW they will if they want dessert badly enough. However, they can still choose to eat or not eat the beans as they wish, knowing that I have chosen to restrict or not restrict their access to dessert based on their choice.
Also, they could choose to eat some ice cream, but I may KNOW they can't because we are out of ice cream and I am not going to store to get some.
I'm also speaking biblically here. If God is not bound by the natural laws of space and time, then it resonable to conclude that God KNOWS what will happen before it happens. He also knows what has happened just as he knows what will happen.
Imagine being on the ground and looking at what was around you. Your perspective is limited and does not have the perspective of, say a helicopter. Imagine time being the ground where you are standing, and God being the helicopter. He can see what is behind you, directly in front of you, and ahead of you. But again, this is a PERSPECTIVE and not a specific action of control.
God's omniscience allows Him to view the past as if it is the present and the future as if it is the present. But that viewing or perspective in no way takes away our freedom of action.
The Bible constantly talks about our own free will just as it talks about God's nature of being all knowing. Jesus said at John 8:24: "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”" There was free will to believe or not believe. Leviticus 22:23 says: "You may, however, present as a freewill offering an ox or a sheep that is deformed or stunted, but it will not be accepted in fulfillment of a vow."
My point is that God's foreknowledge of future events does not CAUSE us to act in any specific way. Perhaps we can view free will as a philosophical illusion. But as humans, we have choice. And whether or not someone knows what choice we will make does not directly impact how we make that choice.
I'm also speaking biblically here. If God is not bound by the natural laws of space and time, then it resonable to conclude that God KNOWS what will happen before it happens. He also knows what has happened just as he knows what will happen.
The Bible doesn't say that God is not bound by natural laws of space and time. And, even if he wasn't, it's quite the leap to suggest that Christians have figured out the effects of not being bound by space and time. Perhaps it simply means he is unble to exist in the form you describe.
Imagine being on the ground and looking at what was around you. Your perspective is limited and does not have the perspective of, say a helicopter.
Bad example. The helicopter ALSO doesn't have my perspective, we are both limited.
God's omniscience allows Him to view the past as if it is the present and the future as if it is the present. But that viewing or perspective in no way takes away our freedom of action.
If there is always a 0% chance that we will choose to do something besides what God as foreseen, then yes, it does.
The Bible constantly talks about our own free will just as it talks about God's nature of being all knowing. Jesus said at John 8:24: "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”"
Out of context in relation to this discussion. That scripture is saying something completely different what what you are and they are not related in any way.
Wait, wasn't this what the Matrix was about?
That's not what that scripture says.
1Kings 8:27 says that the heavens of the heavens cannot contain God. In Hebrew this meant space beyond the earth. There are 3 heavens referred to in the Bible. The sky, the universe, and the spiritual heavens. 1Kings is speaking of the heavens of the heavens. This is the universe beyond earths sky. That would mean that the universe cannot contain God. Just because you say that is not what the scripture says does not make it so.
1Kings 8:39 speaks of God knowing the hearts of all men. If you have issue with that, you can read Proverbs 15:3 that says God's eyes are everywhere. Or Psalm 139:7-10: Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
The Bible doesn't say that God is not bound by natural laws of space and time.
According to your wealth of apparent biblical knowledge, correct me. I haven't seen you use a single verse to contradict what I'm saying. Where does the Bible say that God is bound by natural laws?
That scripture is saying something completely different what what you are and they are not related in any way.
You keep saying that but are not able to show HOW. Jesus said " unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins." They had free will to believe or not believe. So no, I'm not going out of context of our discussion. I'm very much in the context.
You're making baseless comments in saying that the scripture is saying something differently, yet you cannot tell me how I am interpreting it wrongly.
Biblical quotations taken out of context (as EntirelyPossible has shown) are the sum of the evidence for anything existing "outside time"?
Remind me not to hire you as my lawyer.....
If God existed in only one dimension of time
Huh? That doesn't even make sense. How many dimensions does time have?
I get the distinct sense you are making this up as you go along....
