1975 - A weak argument?

by Christ Alone 89 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Christ Alone

  Data Dog, I didn't mean my post title to infer that the 1975 prophecy was less wrong, or right in any way. I meant that 1975 is one of the weaker arguments when speaking with a JW. Especially if they did not go through the event.

  I was approaching it in a JW mind set. If I was still a JW and someone came up to me regarding 1975, I would tell them that the WT never specifically stated that 1975 would without a doubt see Armageddon. Most likely they would not have the time to go through the quotes to sufficiently show me that it was inferred strongly enough so that there was to be no doubt about the prophecy. They would most likely only be able to show me isolated quotes that show that the end coming in 1975 was POSSIBLE or even PROBABLE. But not definite. This is unlike the 1914,1915,1918,1919,1925 dates which WERE spoken of as being definite dates.

  That's what I meant in saying that it's a weak argument. It's weak in comparison to the more compelling arguments.

  However, I revised my position because if the person speaking to JWs had actually experienced the time period first hand, their discussion about what was said at meetings, conventions, personal conversations, etc would be much stronger. For example, if dozy (as seen in her post above) was to relate her experience about living through 1975 and how her family was adversely effected, and THEN was to show the article praising JWs for selling their homes to pioneer til the end, that would be a far more compelling argument.

  My point is that it was never specifically written that "1975 will see the end of this system". THAT is what a JW would need to see to be able to acknowledge that this was a bonefide false prophecy.

  They DID say this about 1914. But the problem with that is that the articles are so old, who will have the quotes available to physically show the JW when speaking with them? And with this "new light" they can say that Russell was not even part of the FDS at that time. So even IF it was a false prophecy, it was not one made by the FDS. Very frustrating...
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  Finkelstein

  Problemaddict says ...

  " NOTHING the WT has written can be considered false prophecy because JW's believe they are not prophets."

  Sorry dude but the WTS. has said that they were prophets divinely directed by god's holy spirit, numerous times in their literature.

  Somewhat of stupid redundant statement considering the WTS/JWs says its been specifically chosen as god's earthly organization as his mouth piece

  and voice for mankind. The one and only true FDS .
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  OUTLAW

  Look I expect anyone here who was alive during then to be able to confirm what happened in 75.

  But there are many others who were, that simply don't feel the same way for a variety of reasons.

  My mother for example, is not being dishonsest with me about her perception of that year. She is honest to a fault.

  Your mom`s honesty is not in Question..

  My parents didn`t remember anything either..

  Even though they preached 1975 through the 60`s & 70`s and dragged my ass with them..

  I literally had to pull out WBT$ literature they were peddling at the time..

  To get them to acknowledge what they were doing for over a decade.

  They were repeatedly told it never happened..

  Eventually they had forgotten about their own life experience..

  The WBT$ rewrote Their Lives for them,After the Fact..

  

  .......................... ...OUTLAW
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  mrsjones5

  In other words jws will believe what they want to believe and forget what they think they have to forget because the WT told them to. My parents are the same way.
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  BroMac

  this is an interesting thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/155345/1/1969-Convention-Reports-PDF
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  Finkelstein

  The Watchtower Society of the Jehovah's Witnesses claims to be God's one and only true prophet, and it is God's only and exclusive organization on earth. All other religions (Babylon the Great), it teaches, are false religions functioning under the power and influence of Satan. They write: “Whom has God actually used as his prophet? …. Jehovah's witnesses are deeply grateful today that the plain facts show that God has been pleased to use them …. It has been because Jehovah thrust out his hand of power and touched their lips and put his words in their mouths.” (w59 y15 pp.40-41 pars. 13-14) Elsewhere they proclaim, “As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale. All this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind it all.” (w64 6/15 p. 365 par 22)
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  BroMac

  http://archive.org/details/WhatIsTheSignficanceOf1975

  go to 64.00mins

  imagine you were there. like any other convention you have ever been to, concentration is not 100%. consider the way Freddy delivered his talks.

  what impression would you get from this other than something big is going to happen "In the year 'Nineteen Hundred And Seventy Five' "?

  He says there is not enough time to settle down and have a family or get some Engineering job. time is REEEDUUUUCED!.

  who talks like that anyway? crazy man Freddy
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  Juan Viejo2

  It was pretty clear that the WT leadership, specifically Fred Franz, was pushing hard that something would happen in 1975. You can tell that was the case about his reaction when nothing significant occurred in October that year - as he had prophecied. What is my evidence?

  Because Franz immediately followed up with the excuse that maybe the count should have started when Eve was created - not Adam. He had no idea if Adam had lived days, months, or even years before Eve was popped out of his rib cage.

  One other possibility that Franz and other floated was that the time started when Adam and Eve were tossed out of the garden. No way to calculate that either.

  What they really missed in all of this is that there is not one single reference in the Bible that supports "creative days" being 7000 years long. That is totally a Watchtower hyper-myth. Many evangelical religions do not tie creative days to any specific time periods, but some suggest that each creative day was 1000 years. (A day unto the Lord is as a 1000 years,etc.) In fact, a candidate for Congress in the recent USA elections actually stated that he believed the earth was less than 9000 years old - which of course is nonsense considering how long human society has existed.

  Those of us who were around at the time remember very clearly what was happening at assemblies and in our Kingdom Halls. Not a single meeting went by that some mention of 1975 was made in passing or directly from the podium. My parents called me (I wasn't in during the early 70s) and begged me to repent and return to The Truth for my sake and that of my children "because the brothers at Bethel are saying that we only have a couple of years left."

  They loved me and sincerely did not want me or my family to die in 1975. My father was an elder at the time and privy to all the insider talk based on letters and information passed on from Bethel.

  Anyone denying that the leaders of the Watchtower at all levels were pushing the belief that Armageddon was coming in 1975 is simply in denial, or worse.

  JV
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  problemaddict

  @ Finkel - Whats up bud. Just a couple quick things. I didn't ask my mother about this yesterday. We spoke about this a long time ago. She became a JW slightly prior to 75, but did not do so because of it. I agree with you of course. Who can discount your PERSONAL experience. But her PERSONAL experience was different. Not everyone that went through that time saw the same thing, experienced the same thing, or interpreted things the same. For her it was just another year, and the elders in her hall never spoke about it, or hyped it. No off the reservation CO's saying ridiculous things at an assembly. Just another year. I would say others probaby felt the same. An arguement for the entire group being one way, when all you have is a localized personal experience, doesn't consider other localized personal experiences may differ. I'm not saying your perception is wrong, just that perception IS reality. The question was is 1975 a weak arguement for active JW's to take notice and begin to ask questions.....I believe it is.

  @ FW Franz - I completely understand where you are coming from. From a practical perspective, no active JW believes that the GB are prophets or that they have ever called themselves such. I am aware they have called themselves Gods prophet. In the context of the statement however, the definition of prophet falls more along the ambiguous lines of "proclaiming" something. Here is an accepted definition that is benign and their default position.

  4. The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.

  I'm not saying its accurate, but it is their explanation. Its double talk, and they are trying to have it both ways just like when they compare obedience to Moses to obedience to the GB(FDS). But it resonates and stonewalls the conversation.
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  DATA-DOG

  I know CA, I was joking around with you. It is really frustrating. It seems like people only wake up if:

  1) They already possess a certain mind-set/personality

  2) experience injustice ( perhaps repeatedly )

  3) actually care if something is true or false

  Even that is not a sure thing. I am sure there are other criteria. A person has to be looking for truth, wanting truth, willing to give some things up and be ridiculed. The WTBTS sucks. They lie and then persecute those who won't believe....