Good point.
God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites - What does the bible REALLY teach?
by irondork 116 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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PSacramento
ACtually, the important part of those passages, IMO, is that God "gives them up" to what they want to do.
Basically and like CS Lewis said:
Either we say to God, "Thy will be done" or God says to us, "thy will be done".
In short, when we do what we know to be wrong for Us, we choose to say to God, "MY will superceedes yours" and God says, " So be it" and we have no further excuse in regards to the consequences of our actions.
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unstopableravens
iron: please do me a favor or anyone else, i dont know how and im on a phone, theres a seven min clip that i would like to be posted here and please watch it. please post it here thanks: john piper why is homosexuality wrong? i think its a great clip thanks
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GromitSK
Oh good grief.
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irondork
Why Homosexuality is Wrong - John Piper http://youtu.be/_n078cvLw8I
Something has changed at Youtube and I no longer know how to embed a video. That link is the best I can do.
I'll look at the video later this evening and let you know what I think.
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unstopableravens
ok cool thanks, look forward to see what you think he touches on romans 1
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Jeffro
Cold Steel:
I have evidence that God exists, but not proof. God’s very nature precludes Him from providing proof, and there are good reasons for that. If He provided proof, all those on Earth who comprehended it would be bound to do His will or stand condemned to suffer perdition. This would also negate our free agency to a great extent. How? Many today, even if they knew for certain without any shadow, or doubt, of the verity of God, His justice, wisdom and love, they still would refuse to follow Him for whatever reason. Perhaps it would be a misunderstanding such as the ones you guys are making. Or maybe a person just might not want to live a religious life. At any rate, He keeps enough doubt in the mix so that all men do not condemn themselves to the extent that there is no way back into His good graces.
Well, no, you don't have evidence. You have faith. You interpret unrelated 'evidence' in a manner consistent with your preconceived beliefs.
Not based on human physiology. None of the parts fit where they’re supposed to. As far as animal species, they suffer some of the same mental and emotional disorders of man. Pedophilia and homosexuality are both unnatural mental disorders, and both very difficult to control, granted.
"None of the parts fit". LOL. If that were true, they would have given it away some time ago.
And the old false syllogism (no pun intended) connecting homosexuality with pedophilia. This is a 'guilt by association' fallacy. The two concepts are entirely unrelated. Pedophilia is independent of sexual orientation.
And if humans and animals have the same 'mental and emotional disorders' in common (a claim which is not conceded in the current scope), just how are these "unnatural"?? This is plainly a subjective moral judgement. (There may be some value in comparing 'mental and emotional disorders' among different animals, however the other poster is attempting to confuse disorders with normal variation.)
I couldn’t agree more. In some cases, human bondage can be an incredibly fair and equitable way of paying off debts without going to a debtor’s prison. What’s not fair is to let people out of their financial obligations while leaving the one holding the debt holding nothing. The Mosaic Law maintained a very fair form of indentured servitude in lieu of payment of debt, either to the one you owed money to or to another person, as the details were worked out before a judge. Debt owers also had their debts forgiven every seventh year, and it was against God’s Law to deny money to someone just because a debt forgiveness holiday was coming up. Crop owners had to leave some of their crops in the field so they could be gleaned by the poor, and even people with date trees were forbidden to cover them to protect them from birds. The entire Law was a masterpiece of Justice.
Funny how he simply skipped over the ridiculous things from the so-called "masterpiece of Justic" that were in the statement to which he replied, cherry-picked the bit he wanted, and then provided a romanticised interpretation.
I’m no bigot, I’m biased. A bigot greatly prefers his own kind of political, social, religious and financial peers, and this is certainly not the case with me. I’ve had good friends who are homosexual and, like I said, it’s not my place to judge them. And based on my personal beliefs, gleaned not only from the scriptures but in reading numerous near death experiences, everyone has issues they have to work through in this life. I also believe we all had premortal lives in the spirit, and that we came into mortality with these issues. (As difficult as it may seem; as difficult as it may be to believe, I, too, have issues I struggle with each day.) I have no desire to interfere with anyone’s lifestyle or sexual proclivities, but the scriptures mean what they say, and endless rationalizations change nothing. The Hebrew scriptures and traditions are steeped in history, and historians and theologians know beyond a doubt what the views of the scriptures were, and that homosexuality was not condoned in any way, shape or form. Jesus not only didn’t change these views, but His apostles iterated the ancient commandments against homosexuality.
Your earlier responses indicate that you aboslutely make subjective moral judgements on the 'lifestyles' of other people.
The Lord has promised that despite our challenges in this life, “all things wherewith you have been afflicted shall work together for your good.” So whether homosexuality, pedophilia and other predilections are genetic or something more remains a mystery. From a social sense, it may be acceptable. You decide. But the scriptures are clear on the matter, and that it’s now suddenly ambiguous is just another reason we need men who can speak authoritatively for God.
Again, the distorted association of homosexuality with pedophilia.
But your claims about 'God' here are even more ridiculous, as are in fact all such theological questions. All such questions put 'the cart before the horse' by relying on an unproven and unprovable assertion about the existence of their chosen deity. You must first prove the existence of your chosen deity before attempting to imbue it with any authority, characteristics, or actions. Otherwise it's just fan fiction.
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Cold Steel
CS’s attitude, his “great advert” is exactly what the apostle warned us of when he spoke of Satan being an “angel of light” followed by, “It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness.” (2 Corinthian 11:15)
You’re entitled to your opinion, of course, but on the one hand you don’t buy into Christianity, and on the other you’re quoting Paul warning against deceit by evil spirits masquerading as angels of light.
We’ve looked at the scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments. You do the same thing that Jehovah's Witnesses do in their scriptural exegesis: you take scriptures that are perfectly clear and then attempt to obfuscate them by saying they don’t mean what they appear to mean. You have the right to do so, but your views represent only a very small minority of recognized scholarship. In fact, I know of no non-activist commentaries that reinterpret these scriptures.
The true source of CS’s information is easily detected in the amount of hate and anger and the spit and venom with which he peddles his version of Christianity. Again, not surprising.
Hate, anger, spit and venom? Moi?? I thought we were discussing biblical exegesis. I feel neither hate nor anger, nor spit and venom regarding homosexuals. I would hire gay individuals in a heartbeat if I had a business. And I was perfectly clear that I in no way want to limit their rights in society. I even was clear in my belief that homosexuals can gain eternal life and that God loves them every bit as much as His other children. My personal view is that homosexuality is an anomaly of nature, whether it’s in animals or people. Sex is hard wired into us to perpetrate the species, and homosexuality doesn’t act to that end. Most of the pedophiles are gay or have gay tendencies. The Lord stated: “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.” (Deuteronomy 22:5) I watch the coverage of the parades in San Francisco and the gay rights marches and what do I see? Nude lesbians and gay men dressed as nuns, large phallic appendages attached to their waists, lipstick, wigs, men wearing women’s clothing and other vulgarities. I haven’t seen one gay rights parade that didn’t have these things in abundance. Yet somehow it’s me the one with the problem. It’s me who’s filled with hate, anger, fear, spit and venom.
This simply is not the case.
I admit feeling disgust at the parades and marches, and the debaucheries of homosexuals throughout history, such as Prince Henry of Prussia and the extensive network in the German Third Reich. But like I said, I don’t judge gays, and I don’t have problems hiring them or working with them, nor do I think God hates them or throws them into a never-ending hell. I routinely socialize with several, and though they're not close friends, I have no problem breaking bread with them on occasion. I don’t know what they do in the bedroom and don’t want to know. We’re all judged of God ultimately, and I prefer to keep it that way.
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Jeffro
Cold Steel:
Sex is hard wired into us to perpetrate the species, and homosexuality doesn’t act to that end.
Ahem... I think (hope) you mean perpetuate? I assume you feel the same disgust about infertile people who still have sex.
I watch the coverage of the parades in San Francisco and the gay rights marches and what do I see? Nude lesbians and gay men dressed as nuns, large phallic appendages attached to their waists, lipstick, wigs, men wearing women’s clothing and other vulgarities.
Another fallacy. Hasty generalisation. This doesn't tell you anything about homosexuals. It tells you about (a predominant subset of) people who appear in 'gay pride' marches. And why do you watch the pride marches anyway? So you can revel in your own 'righteous indignation'?
I admit feeling disgust at the parades and marches, and the debaucheries of homosexuals throughout history, such as Prince Henry of Prussia and the extensive network in the German Third Reich.
LOL. Only a true bigot would associate homosexuality with the inner workings of the Third Reich. Godwin would be proud.
I routinely socialize with several, and though they're not close friends, I have no problem breaking bread with them on occasion.
How very charitable of you. I suppose you also allow a little time for your 'black friends'.
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irondork
I watched the video. I was really hoping for something new. Instead, it's the same old reasoning on those passages that only carry weight for people who need the bible to support their feeling that homosexuality is "icky". They wrap thier twist on the scriptures in an illusion of love and fake non-judgement. It's hollow. Empty. It serves no purpose other than to alienate gays and lesbians from God.
I don't have time to tackle him point by point right now, but I seriously doubt it would be worth my time anyway. The passages used to "clobber" gays have been dissected in this and the other threads on the topic. For all the responses received from the anti-gay side, not one person has addressed the evidence provided that the traditional interpretation of these scriptures is flawed. Rather, the responses received have just been broad statements, unsupported by what the bible really teaches, not coming anywhere near the detailed analysis provided in these threads.
I have to wonder if the OPs on these threads were even read or if the dissenters merely recognised these threads as pro-gay and posted generic, computer-generated responses for the sake of coming in on the apposing side.
A conversation like this is pointless if one side of it is unable or unwilling to examine and address the information being presented.