What evidence is there for Jesus (NOT USING THE BIBLE)?

by punkofnice 139 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Christ Alone

  Why are you trying to create a false equivalency between "we" and the church fathers?

  Because you said that they weren't writing at the time of Jesus to see or hear him. I'm saying that this is unneccesary.

  Come on, man. You went on and on about writings and using them and now all of the sudden it's the oral tradition copout?

  No, I'm speaking about how the teachings of Jesus were passed on before the writings that we have. No copout. I'm guessing you don't understand oral traditions because you are saying that because they didn't physically see or hear Jesus speak, they couldn't possibily know what he said or did.

  I've wrote it once.

  No...I don't see it. You accused me of cherry picking church fathers before I even mentioned a single church father. Yet, my whole argument was to show that proof of Jesus existence exists outside of the NT. Man, you are exhausting. We must have some sort of gap in communication style...
• 

  FlyingHighNow

  This just makes me smile. The thread I mean. For a few reasons. I appreciate the articles and comments. Thank you especially, Psac.
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  Because you said that they weren't writing at the time of Jesus to see or hear him. I'm saying that this is unneccesary.

  That has nothing to do with me not being around to see Ghengis Khan.

  No, I'm speaking about how the teachings of Jesus were passed on before the writings that we have. No copout. I'm guessing you don't understand oral traditions because you are saying that because they didn't physically see or hear Jesus speak, they couldn't possibily know what he said or did.

  I know, you love to suggest people don't know things when you are copping out. It's an amusing but tired old canard.

  In any event, oral tradition has a very unreliable transmission, see the differences int he gospel, the hundreds of Christianities you seem to not know about, the differences in the old testament writings and other oral tradition.

  No...I don't see it

  OK. Try again.
• 

  PSacramento

  Thank you FHN :)

  These discussions aren't new, a friend of mine in Theology class let me borrow an old apologetics book of his that was discussing many of these issues and it was from the 1800's.

  These questions come around simply because there is no 100% answer to them and because lay people tend to view the historical relevance of writings in a very different way than scholars and historians.
• 

  Christ Alone

  In any event, oral tradition has a very unreliable transmission, see the differences int he gospel, the hundreds of Christianities you seem to not

  know about, the differences in the old testament writings and other oral tradition.

  Well that's just plain wrong, and can be proven, hence my comment about you not understanding oral traditional cultures. I don't "like" to tell someone they don't understand something, but if it is clear that they don't I have no problem saying it, just as you don't... :-) You said:

  I know, you love to suggest people don't know things when you are copping out. It's an amusing but tired old canard.

  ...and then proceeded to suggest that I don't know about the supposed inaccurasies of oral tradition. Ironic?

  Here's a good article about oral tradition and the NT and shows how wrong the claim is that oral traditions were not accurate.

  http://reknew.org/2008/01/how-reliable-was-the-early-churchs-oral-traditions/

  It's based off of this book, which destroys much of what 19th and 20th century "form criticism" claimed.

  http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Legend-The-Historical-Reliability/dp/0801031141
• 

  jam

  Humm, lets see. We have Mohammed, without the Koran would

  we have Islam (570-632 AD). We have the chubby guy Buddha

  (563-483 BC), wtihout his writing would we have Buddhism?

  Mr Joseph Smith and his mysterious tablets, would the Mormon

  church exist today. Well we have the jolly old man, Santa Claus,

  Without the Xmas songs, Xmas trees, reindeers, commercialism

  and credit cards, what evidence is there he didn,t exist. LOL
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  Sorry, obviously biased authors aren't reliable. Perhaps you could address the obvious examples of oral tradition introducing changes rather than fall back on biased pastors to prove your point?
• 

  Christ Alone

  How are they biased? Give me an example of how their wrong or changing the facts. Or are you biased to all those that may have a religious background? Are they ALL dishonest and change the facts in your opinion?
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  How are they biased? Give me an example of how their wrong or changing the facts. Or are you biased to all those that may have a religious background? Are they ALL dishonest and change the facts in your opinion?

  I gave you several examples, prominent ones, that show your proposition to be wrong. You refuse to address them. Then you use someone who has a vested emotional and financial interest in convincing people something is true (despite the examples I just provided off the top of my head).

  They are biased.
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  And for an examples, from the reviews, "The book is divided into 10 chapters, the first of which argues that truly objective historians should be open to the possibility of supernatural explanations for historical data."

  Their first position is "you should believe in miracles as valid historical data".

  Lame, they can be dismissed with no further thought.