What evidence is there for Jesus (NOT USING THE BIBLE)?

by punkofnice 139 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Further on the same subject: http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blfaq_jesus_messiahs.htm

    Religions all over the world have experienced a phenomenon which has been given the label "crisis cults." Although the religious and cultural circumstances vary, these movements nevertheless share important similarities. Early Christianity itself can easily be described as such a "crisis cult" - but interestingly, not one which arose without contemporary precedent.

    Recent evidence suggests very strongly that similar apocalyptic movements had already existed in Roman-occupied Judea starting about 100 years before Jesus would have lived. Understanding early Christianity, therefore, would be benefited both by a better knowledge of those earlier movements (insofar as it is possible) and a deeper appreciation for the nature of crisis cults generally.

    How do crisis cults get started? The first ingredient is to have enough people in society who start feeling that their culture and traditional way of life no longer "work" for them anymore. The problem is that major changes are occurring in society - perhaps they are occupied by foreign invaders, or new discoveries and technologies are transforming the culture too quickly.

    Because of this, people seek to recapture what they perceive to be a purer, more righteous age by creating new systems and relationships within the larger society. From this nucleus, society as a whole is supposed to be improved and re-aligned.

    People are drawn to these efforts by the second important ingredient, their own insecurities: they are frightened by the new ideas or alien influences. They are under a great deal of stress, attempting to function in a culture they no longer quite recognize as their own. With this, the stage is set for the coming of a charismatic figure who is seen as a prophet or messiah.

    Max Weber defines such a prophet figure as "a purely individual bearer of charisma, who by virtue of his mission proclaims a religious doctrine or divine commandment. The prophet's claim is based on personal revelation and charisma. This qualification must be regarded as the decisive hallmark of prophecy."

    The intermediary between humans and the divine is characterized first and foremost by his personal charisma, as Weber emphasizes. This is not so much a character trait as it is a form of relationship between the prophet and his followers. What happens is that, over time, the emotions and the personalities of the two begin to mingle.

    What results is similar to a chemical reaction when people who are willing to be led meet up with a person who has the ability to identify himself with the followers and get them to identify themselves with the prophet. The prophet becomes a sort of "empathetic mirror," reflecting back to people not only their own sufferings and desires, but also their hopes for an ultimate resolution and victory.

    When these two find each other during a period amenable to the development of a crisis cult, the power of the relationship is increased dramatically. People under stress and alienated from their culture suddenly are made to feel important and wonderful in a way they are no longer accustomed to.

    All of this easily describes the situation experienced by the people in Judea under Roman rule. Their culture and religion were being heavily influenced by Roman and Hellenistic philosophy. In this situation, prophetic and messianic figures could find very fertile soil. It was here that Christianity developed during its earliest years, but other, similar movements preceded it and probably influenced it.

    Two recent books discuss the nature of such crisis cults, focusing upon such movements which appeared in Roman-occupied Judea before the development of Christianity. Evidence for at least one alleged "Messiah" before Jesus can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and could have serious consequences for our understanding of how and why Christianity first appeared.

    The First Messiah: Investigating the Savior before Jesus, by Michael O. Wise.

    The Messiah Before Jesus: The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls, by Israel Knohl.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Indeed, the Jews knew the Suffering Servant in Isaiah better than later Christians. Yet their idea of a Messiah was a worldly, successful one with great power. Paul called it the folly of the cross. I've read several scholars report that the Christians hijacked Jewish scripture and "found" new interpretations. One example is Psalm 23.

    I was raised this supposed OT knowledge. The OT was written for Jews, not Christians. Claiming an ancient religion's sacred scripture allowed Christianity to have more status. It drives me crazy when people here pretend as though the NT is some fulfillment.

    Filtering out these cultural biases allows one to see Christianity more clearly. It retains a powerful message.

    Jewish Gnosticism also existed. Apocalyptic lit is present in Jewish writings of the period. Our ignorance of history keeps us captive to stale ideas.

  • LV101
    LV101

    FHN --- I AGREE, trust me. I know non-religious folk who live by that rule and it's beautiful. I was shocked when I'd read on this board that Jesus didn't come up with this one (I don't know if, in fact, that's true) but he's the one most of us learned from.

    His teachings have certainly influenced many individuals for the better --- I'm not saying that education wouldn't have worked but I've personally acknowledged transformations from both arenas.

  • still thinking
  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    While I fully agree with Mr. Ingersol in the matter of reality, many never let truth or reality stand in their way.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Honestly believing should make your faith stronger. The academic scholarship is in accord on most topics. Someone might emphasize one subject over another. When they do so, however, they clearly note that it is their personal opinion.

    I would be an atheist if I had to choose between scholarship and faith. Educated and informed faith is possible. The tension seems to happen when unsophsiticated believers join the fray. I highly value education and it is obvious why I do. Yet Jesus chose fishermen, not theologians.

    Any time anyone asks you to defer to their private belief, one should ask what is my belief. What do others believe? Does what so and so claim mesh with my personal values.

    Skepticism can enhance true faith. Character counts, too. I see no reason to trash the Wt and then do exactly what the WT does.

    Sophstication, a certain world knowledge, does not make one evil. Any gift we have can be used with faith.

    Others may not have my faith, it does not bother me. Atheists never bother me. My faith is a conscious, personal decision. There is no right or wrong.

    Tradition does not make something wrong. It is ridiculous to me that Christ is the only path to what we call God.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    OnTheWayOut, I look at this Jesus Didn't Exist kind of thing like the Americans didn't really land on the moon, the holocaust never happened and Jim Morrison didn't really die movements. Recently LowKey posted a crazy thread suggesting that the Connecticut School masacre never happened and that it was a government invention. Jesus isn't a god to me, but I think it's a sad ploy for people to try to erase him from history.

  • pseudoxristos
    pseudoxristos

    I’m a little surprised that no one has mentioned why some think that the bible itself leaves room for doubt for a historical Jesus.

    I remember reading years ago that the writings of Paul (the earliest NT writer) never give any detail about the birth, life, ministry or death of Jesus. Any passage written by Paul that puts Jesus in any historical context is considered a later addition. It is also thought that the Gospels (written after Pauls writings) were an attempt to flesh out the historical story of Jesus.

    The following is the first site I came across that gives a good introduction into this concept:

    Jesus Myth - The Case Against Historical Christ

    http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm

    pseudo

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    FHN, I suggest no such thing as erasing "Jesus" from history. I am pretty sure someone filled the role of Buddha also, but did not have actual miracles (or whatever you want to call the things in his legend) in his bag of wisdom.

    I honored this man known as "Jesus" by saying he died for his beliefs and inspired people.

    But even taking legends without miracles in them, truth is so different from the legend. Paul Revere was not the only rider that night, and he didn't shout "The British are coming!" as he rode. So the single-handed hero calling "Americans" to arms thus saving them is just a poem that became history. If our records of Palestine 2000 years ago were only as good as our records of the late 18th century, we might know what really happened.

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    I agree with you on that. The history of the American Civil War is skewed, even in the text books we had in the 1960s and 70s in the south. The south was definitely painted black and evil and it was made to look as if it were only about slavery.

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