So if you tell a JW they were raised in a cult...

by NeverKnew 49 Replies latest jw friends

  • NeverKnew
    NeverKnew

    Yeah...it was wrong. I got upset and blurted this truth. Seems kinda screwy that telling someone a truth could be wrong.

    I told him that I was feeling a little concerned by quite a bit of what I'm seeing in WT literature and that I was worried that it didn't matter to him. I continued by saying that it seemed that the society had carte blanche to say whatever they wanted in my Lord's name and that he (my BF) was okay with it.

    We started down the road of talking about the rising partaker figures. He said it was no big deal for that was between the partakers and God. I told him that the Society's history of claims that a reduction being correlative to Armageddon's arrival was failing. I told him he'd have to understand the evolution of the construct. I talked about Rutherford's new earthly paradise that was formed around 1935 and how millions then living would never die since the generation of 1914 would not disappear, the masthead creation (and changes) and how the partaker's figures fit into this grand scheme. I had him find and read out loud 3 or 4 Watchtower articles (thanks, Jwfacts) that substantiated my claims of the WT's historical stance on the reduction of partakers and how, when the numbers weren't decreasing, there were articles of emotionally imbalanced people partaking.

    I also told him there were remnants of these teachings in their presentations today (I once called him on his use of "soon" and required that he not use it if he didn't know when "soon" was).

    I should have left it there. He was already agitated.

    I heard him say something to the effect of, "the Society HAS made adjustments... blah blah ...for the path of the righteous ones.... light getting brighter... blah blah and so we no longer do any date setting!"

    I blurted... "so let me get this straight... your organization has required 120 years of adjustments to get to where Christendom has been for a couple of thousand years and you want me to leave what I've always known and believe in this stuff as these guys figure it out? They're using some awfully dim lights!!!!"

    He blurted... "well Christendom has gotten some things wrong too!"

    I followed with... "the foundational tenets of all of Christendom are the same! There's no 'us vs. them' in Christendom! I don't hear that coming from the pulpits!" (a friend noted that Protestants even use the same seminaries) I told him I had to go and said goodbye. I had had enough.

    Text message from him immediately followed: "A fool is one who claims to know all. Careful with your statements. You do not know my conversations with those as what you call traditional Christians. I can't allow you to tell me what I've heard. If you get upset, that's alright but you aren't in a position to tell me about my MANY conversations with traditional Christians."

    My response: "You were raised in a cult. I'm tired of hiding this. If you don't believe me you can do your own research. This is a man-made organization. That's why things keep changing. I'm tired of being the only one doing the research. I love you but you can't hear me nor can you do any true research outside of the cult."

    Him: "Stay where you are XXXX. You see no good where I am anyway. CULT. Take care of yourself."

    ME: Your behavior, information, thinking and emotions are all controlled by them (AKA BITE methodoligies). There's nothing I can do and no, I will not be joining your cult. I will not separate myself from Christ.

    I really love and care about him and he knows this. I'm tired of withholding all that I've learned and trying to use it to guide him down a path he can't even fathom. This has become a load that is too heavy for me to carry.

    My truth (which was the elephant in my own mouth) is out.

    I know this was against the advice you gave me. Even if I lose him (which I may have), maybe this year and a half of dripping will, one day, help him find his way out.

    Nonetheless, thank you all for helping me.

    I'm not leaving JWN so you'll have to tolerate the non-jw here. I've learned too much to lose you guys too. :)

  • Think About It
    Think About It
    My response: "You were raised in a cult. I'm tired of hiding this.

    LOL- Awesome!

  • jamiebowers
    jamiebowers

    A non-jw dating a jw is akin to a non-addict dating an alcoolic or drug addict in relation to the fact that neither the addict or the jw will stop their harmful activities until they are ready to stop.

  • Honeybucket
    Honeybucket

    great post. I think alot of us have gone through this conversation with our own loved ones. They cant see ttatt. Maybe he needs to hit rock bottom. Did he talk to someone about your conversation. JW's dont think for themselves, so he probably went to an elder or a fam member and they "reasoned" with him and they put words into his mouth

  • extractor
    extractor

    Sorry things went south NeverKnew.

    There is nothing more infuriatingly frustrating than talking to an "in" JW. You got it off your chest, the cat's out of the bag, and now he knows where you stand. If you want to repair the relationship you could appologise (even though you really have nothing to appologise for. The truth hurts.). You're not appologising because you're wrong, but only for the purpose of repairing the relationship.

    I think you probably also know there's no future for the two of you with him "in" and you knowing TTATT. "It" will ALWAYS be there between you... unless you become a JW or he becomes an Ex-JW... and one of those for sure isn't going to happen.

    Sorry.

  • perfect1
    perfect1

    Hi Never Knew,

    Sorry to hear about this. I think you have made some assumptions here- but maybe look at it this way:

    You could ask your Boyfriend if there is anything the organization could do that would cause him doubts.

    The problem is, any faults or inconsistencies he attributes to IMPERFECT MEN and any good he attribute to being GODS ONLY CHOSEN PEOPLE.

    As long as you go poining out those inconsistencies he has a thought stopping cliche- acually several. You might trigger his awareness of his own indoctrinated mental process by asking him if there is any other possibility.

    It might be an interesting thought experiment to ask him if there is anything that would cause him to doubt. You might need to wait till the defenses drop. In the heat of the moment, its going to be so emotional for you both, and he will just be desperate to block your thinking.

    I think rather than say, IT IS A CULT (of course it is) you might have better luck with WHAT IF questions. What if this is not true.

  • ABibleStudent
    ABibleStudent

    Hi (((((((((NeverNew)))))), You are not the only non-JW here. I'm too. I had a similar experience as you did with a JW. Time will help heal the hurts, so move on with your life and live. Be thankful that you were not fooled by a dangerous CULT too and think kindly of your former BF because he is a victim of the WTBTS's BITE control.

    Peace be with you and everyone, who you love,

    Robert

    P.S. - You said everyting that I would have liked to said to my former BF.

  • NeverKnew
    NeverKnew

    He was actually preparing himself for the fallout with his folks after a marriage to me this year. He had conceded that the only thing he was challenged with was Jehovah's ensuing disappointment with him he'd have to face. I don't think he ever really understood how insulting that statement was....

    He has an absolutely incredible memory (unfortunately, this serves to his disadvantage where WT teachings are concerned). I'm hoping that this incredible memory allows him to replay everything that we both said so he can untangle my arguments.

    Jamie: I'll anxiously await that day. He knows I'll welcome him with unconditionally loving arms. (uh.. as long as I'm not married to someone else *ahem*)

    Honeybucket: I think he's too terrified to go outside of our little world to check my statements. It could have potentially revealed me. He's been using that CD. I really hope this pushes him outside that f'in CD.

    Extractor: Such kind words. :) Thank you! Right now I'm looking at this very selfishly and I feel like there's no longer an elephant sitting on my tongue! If repairing the relationship means I have to lie about what I know, it's not a relationship. Those are my feelings now. I'll break in a couple of days, I'm sure.

    I felt a dynamic you all face that's hard to describe until you experience it. The more I learned, the less honest my communication became with him... In every other area of our communication, it was comfortable and free flowing. In this area?.. it was contrived. His cult personality would come out and I'd find myself playing chess with my presentations. IT WAS ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE! If a relationship hinges on either my adoption of a cult or this style of conversation, it's not honest. Period.

    If he reaches out to me, I'll tell him that to continue a relationship, he'll have to understand my fears by reading Hassan's CCMC (which has nothing to do with JWs) and then proving he's not in a cult.

    How will THAT go over I wonder...

  • NeverKnew
    NeverKnew

    Perfect1: He's an absolute Sweetheart who has had quite a few life challenges (some legal - but even those I attribute to the "you're either with us or with Satan" mindset that I now understand). The good news is that I have asked him MANY questions before I arrived here on JWN after a lot of research on getting JWs to think. He has been presented with many articles and Bible texts that I asked him to explain that he couldn't explain. His most recent technique of excusing false doctrines with that freaking light statement (after we went over Prov 4 and AGREED that it was about personal conduct) has sent my frustration level over a cliff. IF he returns, asking him if there's ANYTHING that might cause him to doubt would be a great question to ask. Unless he says no... *sigh*

    As long as you go poining out those inconsistencies he has a thought stopping cliche- acually several. You might trigger his awareness of his own indoctrinated mental process by asking him if there is any other possibility.

    We touched on this last night. He brought up John 10:16 and he attributed this to the earthly paradise. I was blown away. I asked him who Jesus was speaking to - he responded correctly in saying "Jews." I then asked if Jesus could have been speaking about the inclusion of Gentiles and the possibility of this this verse not having anything to do with a group of people living on Earth and he seemed annoyed with the possibility of an alternate interpretation. The conversation was going to H%^&*%

    If I say .. is there a possiblity? - he seems to be confused. Then, if I say, "could this mean (insert contextually accurate meaning here)" he seems to want to argue for the WT. At that point, I seem to want to verbally punch him in the head....

    ABibleStudent: You had an elephant on your tongue too, huh... *sigh* I know the feeling. :(

  • problemaddict
    problemaddict

    Neverknew,

    If your intent was to push him closer to the JW religion, and to emotionally relieve yourself.....mission accomplished. Very little is accomplished when the c word is throw out there. Regardless of the Oxford definition, the real world conotation is extreme. People think Jonestown and Heavens Gate when they hear this word. Evangelicals know this and that is why they purposely tag JW's with it.

    However, I prefer the term high control group. I also think it conveys the SAME THING as you mean when you call it a cult.

    Here is a thought for when you guys have calmed down and have the "light discussion" again.

    In order for light to get brighter, doesn't it have to be light to begin with? The history of our faith shows the complete abandonment of teachings, not their "refinement" as is commonly thought of. For goodness sake, after over 130 years they just figured out who the FDS is!

    You want to start discussions. In order to do that, you have to be willing to give and take. Keep using the C word and you will end up exactly where you think you will.

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