what ever happened to the king of the north and king of south?

by nowwhat? 60 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • respectful_observer
    respectful_observer

    Billy,

    The Talk #3 last week was taken from the Reasoning book section of "What prophecies remain unfulfilled?" It was pretty much every one you just listed. The theme the speaker wove throughout the talk was that the Bible represents 4,000 years of human history, but that since the last of these prophecies was recorded almost 2,000 years ago, not a single one of these prophecies has been fulfilled. I almost fell out of my chair because she never once said they ever would be fulfilled-- only stated what they were, that they've never been fulfilled, and that Christians continue to wait patiently.

  • trujw
    trujw

    At one time the king of the south was Egypt so they just keep changing it every couple of decades so sad

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    I used to wonder about this too. And I had an idea about who was the follow on to the USSR.

    I recently commenced a study of Daniel chapter 8 and 11 using the NAC commentary as a basic reference. If you do not understand the connection between chapter 8 and chapter 11, then, you are under the influence of a very faulty WT understanding of those two chapters.

    In WT parlance, chapter 8 describes the king of the south (beginning with Cassander, no less!). And chapter 11 describes the rivalry between the king of the north and south from the time of post Alexander Greece, thru Roman times, jumping down to pre 20th century and on into the 20th century. (Curiously, according to the WT, in chapter 8 the king of the south descends from Cassander. But in chapter 11 he descends from Ptolemy.)

    I can tell you this: You will never understand who the 'final king of the north' is if you use WT understanding as a foundation. It is, in part, fanciful nonsense. Incidentally, here is a thread that recently touched on this.

    Here is a little breakdown of chapter 8 and 11 for any who might want a better understanding of it:

    Chapter 8:

    verses 1-8 are Persian/Greek history leading up to Antiochus IV

    verses 9-14 and 23-25 are about Antiochus IV. He is the main character and thrust of chapter 8.

    Chapter 11:

    verses 1-4 are Persian/Greek history thru the demise of Alexander

    verses 5-20 are about the rivalry between the Selucid and Ptolemaic dynasties prior to Antiochus IV

    verses 21-35 are about Antiochus IV

    verses 36-43 describe a future (from Antiochus IV) king of the north who is not unlike Antiochus IV and his rivalry against the king of the south and his movement against Daniel's people.

    verses 44-12:1 describe a great tribulation that brings the final KoN to an end, but saves Daniel's people.

    Antiochus IV dominates chapters 8 and 11. This is why those two chapters are closely related.

    Here are some of the things that are brought out about this final king of the north in Daniel:

    He is atheistic, except he honors the god of fortresses. He is not affected by the 'love of women' as his forefathers were. He is rivaled by the king of the south. He acts against both the king of south and 'the land of the decoration.' He comes to an end in the same 'land' (whether actual or symbolic).

    Most importantly, Daniel describes only ONE king of the north during "the appointed time of the end." Not two or three. And there is no mention of 'changing hands' as it were (ala from Kaiser's Germany to Nazi Germany to the USSR, etc). All that is WT fancifulness.

    WT understanding of chapter 11, up to verse 18, is correct - because it correctly describes history as it happened - as do other non-WT Daniel references. Starting with verse 19, the WT understanding breaks with history and goes off on a non-sensical time hopping trip, attempting to match events in history that appear to relate to what is said in Daniel. Thus, verses 20-35, which should mostly apply to Antiochus IV (except verse 20) are stretched out from Roman times (about 2-4 BC) to late 19th/early 20th century (just prior to WWI). Also, the NWT in Daniel 11:22 is translated to support this: The phrase "The Leader of [the] covenant" (NWT) is actually anarthrous in Daniel ("a leader of a covenant"). The NWT makes it articular to try to give the impression that it is referring to Jesus.

    I will say this about what the WT has taught: I am glad I've studied it because once I studied the real history I was able to see clearly where WT teaching matches and departs from history. And WT teaching gave me a working familiarity with the book of Daniel itself. So I appreciate those aspects of what I was taught. But like they say, 'the devil is in the details.' Having studied it now, I can see why the WT has reached an impasse in their 'understanding.'

  • theopug
    theopug

    My Dad is still an active JW.

    He told me back around 2002 or so that there was a rumor going around that the new King of the North was going to be Islam.

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    When the 1260 & 1290 days, as well as the 2300 mornings and evenings, literally don’t add up--it is not surprise that they haven’t a clue in regard Daniel 11.

    The end was supposed to have come a long time ago and it hasn’t, they’ve no theological spindoctors like Crazy Freddie that can give the illusion of depth. They’ve always been in the grips of narcissistic exegesis, but in the last ten years, the depth of the publications is very shallow. Bottom line is: obey the Slave, do more, live a puritanical lifestyle.

    The “new light” on the Slave, as well as the overlapping generations plainly shows a committee of 7+ men sitting around a table without a deep understanding of the Bible, and are bumbling through and grasping at straws.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    The theme the speaker wove throughout the talk was that the Bible represents 4,000 years of human history,

    but that since the last of these prophecies was recorded almost 2,000 years ago, not a single one of these

    prophecies has been fulfilled. I almost fell out of my chair because she never once said they ever would be

    fulfilled-- only stated what they were, that they've never been fulfilled, and that Christians continue to wait patiently.

    Wow, really? I'd be keeping an eye on that sister if I were you :) Sounds like one of the conscious class.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    what ever happened to the king of the north and king of south?

    The cold war ended in the late 1970's which made this prophetic bible parable redundant and useless for the writing

    editors of the WTS. Corporation. .... Dam

    As its known the WTS. has tried its hardest to superimpose the suggestion that mankind is indeed living its last days,

    as a effective commercially viable means to attract attention to its published works, which in reflection was effective in doing what the intent was

    in accomplishing..

  • heathen
    heathen

    I agree daniel prophesy's was over done but still kinda interesting from a historical kind of view . In daiel 12 it does say a time of distress as the world has never seen before will result in all that , to me it looks like the UN is playing the role of KON which as we know the NWO is about to finish it's plans from a conspiracy point of view as a means to force global governance on the entire planet under tyranny . I have to laugh people saying Islam is KON and only because the WTBTS is still affiliated with what it once called it's enemy and Gods enemy , so what we have is the scarlet beast devours the whore. UN destroys the RCC ,imo, UN goes off into destruction because of public disapproval then the US and British forces take over from there, being manipulated by the NWO ... sounds ok to me ....

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Well, the king of the North is always going to be the U.S. and its allies. The king of the south engages in a "pushing" against the king of the north just before Armageddon, so we have to consider the Islamic world as the king of the South.

    JWs, of course are beyond cluelss about many of these prophesies, and that's because Jehovah has abandoned them. They were informed they were the "evil slave" and had become the "man of lawlessness" on November 10, 1992. They were also told they would be cast into spiritual darkness.

    Evidence of ths is not understanding many of these prophecies. for instance, when Greece overthrew the Medo-Persian empire, it was wonderfully illustrated by a ram, with two horns, which was killed by a he-goat. That is how SUCCESSIVE world powers are demonstrated in the Bible. Where you have one replacing the other. When you have CONCURRENT world powers that exist at the same time, you don't see them interacting and when one is killed, the others remain. This is the case of the four beasts coming out of the sea mentioned in Daniel: A lion, a bear, a leopard with great power, and a fourth beast not like the others, and thus not polical at all. For some reason, everyone I've seen insists that these are successive world powers, when in fact, they are concurrent world powers. As we see, the fourth beast mentioned is killed, but the first three mentions remain. These also are said to give up their sovereignty when the fourth beast is killed. So these are not ancient, defunk ancient world powers; these are active world powers during the last days. The Lion is Japan. The Bear is Russia. The leopard with all the military power is the US and NATO! So the Bible actually prphesied at one time there would be a hands-down sole great military power, and that is precisely what we see. So the WTS is not even beginning to understand this.

    But now that we are so far into these prpphesies and so close to Armagedon, we can apply the reality of our times to the prophesies and understand them retrospectively. Right now, the competition and "pushing" against the king of the north is Islamic terrorism. But if Islamic terrorism is being funded by the Illuminati, then the king of the South could be the 4th beast which represents Babylon the Great. The Illuminati wants to set up the NWO, removing the sovereignty of independent nations and perhaps it is trying to accomplish that through fundamentalist Islamic terrorism. So tghe king of the North would be the 3rd beast mentioned, and the king of the south would be the 4th beast mentioned in Daniel. That's just looking at world events and seeing what most fits the prophecy. This is just a comment in passing.

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    You know, of course, that the WT CD library has never included the "Babylpn the Great Has Fallen..." book! I suppose there was just too much in it they wanted to step away from.

    The Bible says many things would be hidden until the end-times and then there would be light. God would pour his spirit out upon all kinds of people. Clearly, God would not be using his "channel of communication" through the WTS' GB any more at this point. So if we look for the answers and search for knowledge, we should be able to find it and see the fulfillment of so many of these prophecies now. But it won't be coming from a central source, but through various individuals who have bits and pieces of the light, like stars in the night skies.

    My concern is that I see lots of focus on what the WTS doesn't know or understand. But not that much interest in seeing what the true meanings are or in recognizing that just because the WTS has failed, the Bible itself remains true and has not failed. We shoiuldn't lose our faith in the Bible just because the WTS has proven to be a "false prophet" cast out by God and Christ!

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit