Do you think those at the top realise that it's their fault - suicide as a result of being disfellowshipped?

by jambon1 61 Replies latest jw friends

  • steve2
    steve2
    And while steve2 is right to say that we as individuals must cultivate the strength and fortitude to endure trials, that doesn’t mean blame shouldn’t go to those who bring on those trials in the first place.

    Quendi, I appreciate your acknowledgement that those on the receiving end of harsh acts can be helped - or help themselves - build up the personal qualities to survive and even thrive in the face of adversity.

    In my opinion, this issue is not so much about "blame" as it is about apportioning responsibility for contributing to an individual's difficulties. If blame must be the issue, we need to be thorough in order to be"fair". I would suggest a fitting starting place is the mentality that fosters a harsh attitude; notably, that found in the "Holy" book upon which many religious sects exact justice, The Bible. Conveniently, many of those who criticize the Watchtower dare not consider the origins of the shunning policy is scripture. Sure, the Watchtower uses it for its own ends - as indeed most groups who enact it do. But the poison of shunning was first excreted in the "Holy"book. If that is too much to stomach, then avoid the word blame and start to think in terms of apportioning responsibility. Why stop at the elders? Why not those cases in which JW Moms and Dads have heartily endorsed the act of disfellowshipping. Perhaps a vulnerable individual can survive the elders disapproval, but the final straw is their parents slamming the door shut. I simply want the discussion about shunning to move beyond all the heat about the elders. Yes, they contribute to the picture. But they are not alone and the "inspiration" for the act goes back centuries and involves so many other at times complex influences and contributions. That so mny survive their exoduse from kingdom halls shouts about the human capacity to learn how to survive and floursih and learn to kick the victim mentality out the door.

  • Quendi
    Quendi

    I find myself in complete agreement with you, steve2. I especially appreciate your point that the discussion about shunning shouldn’t be about blame as it should be about personal responsibility. I also liked what you said about those of us who have survived and “kicked the victim mentality out the door.”

    The evils the WTS has practiced succeeded because it met little or no resistance from its followers. I collaborated with the Society and shunned disfellowshipped people while I was a Witness in good standing. Many others do so because they believe that they really are helping the “sinner come to his senses” and return to the fold. That used to be my thinking although I was never entirely comfortable with it. When I was disfellowshipped, I went along with being shunned because I believed I deserved it and my submission to it was proof that I had accepted Jehovah’s discipline. It took me a few years to discern the truth of the matter.

    Now I am ashamed I was ever a part of this cult. I can only hope that I can help anybody else who has been disfellowshipped so that they won’t have to endure everything I did. This forum has been a big help in my ongoing recovery.

    Quendi

  • mamochan13
    mamochan13

    Those at the top don't care. They justify their behaviour and blame the victim.

    The actions of the elders may not be direct causal factors for suicide, but the question is: would that individual still be alive if they had not been disfellowshipped? If the answer is "probably, yes" then I think it's clear where responsibility lies.

    I was not suicidal when disfellowshipped. I fought back, I worked hard for reinstatement. I did everything right. It was only after months and months of elder cruelty that I became worn down. But the blatant cruelty of a family turning their back on a child, holding little nieces and nephews heads and saying, "don't even look at her" took the life of at least one of my friends.

  • steve2
    steve2
    But the blatant cruelty of a family turning their back on a child, holding little nieces and nephews heads and saying, "don't even look at her" took the life of at least one of my friends.

    That's a powerfully moving statement Mamochan13. So absolutely sad. Cruelty is an apt word because I have long believed that some JWs deliberately go beyond "simply" avoiding disfellowshipped persons to add spite and a vindictive spirit into the act of shunning.

    These witnesses relish going beyond what is written in the organization's literature.

    Many years ago, I was in the course of carrying out my paid employment duties when a group of witnesses passed me by. One of them - who had known me and my JW parents since I was a very young child - turned to another witness beside her and said out loud whilst fixing her dead eyes on me, "Be careful around him - he's mental".

    That was totally uncalled for and unwarranted. In that moment, I knew that if I said anything - or did anything - it would be used as proof that I was exactly what she said I was. It took me all the self-discipline and dignity I could muster to simply take some quiet deep breaths and get on with my paid work without saying a single word.

    To this day, two memories stand out: Firstly, the sick-minded cruelty of that JW "friend" of my JW family and secondly, the quiet dignity with which I composed myself. The latter memory still inspires me to not give the JWs the satisfaction of living down to their unfounded pessimistic expectations of me.

    I do not blame the elders for this circumstance - I do not even "blame" that woman. But I do speak in terms of that woman needing to take responsibility for her conscious decision to speak so cruelly right in front of me when she knew I would not have been in a position to respond.

    Religious or not religious, some individuals easily fall back on cruel acts and words - it says more about them and their 'spirit' than it does about their intended targets.

  • DesirousOfChange
    DesirousOfChange

    that does not mean an individual's specific needs - including their mental-health needs - should be ignored by elders in the name of enacting a policy.

    Sometimes window washers and handy-man carpenters just don't have the skills in psychology to recognize the needs of someone in trouble. But then, they couldn't make any such kind of decision anyway without calling the Service Dept.

    Doc

  • Eustace
    Eustace

    Pickler I too am so sorry for what you went through. As desperate as things got for you, you survived.

    He was maybe just a little bit stronger than someone who would've done himself in.

    The disfellowshipping procedure is enacted on people without regard for how strong they are. If I threw heavy rocks at people and some of them survived because they were stronger and some died because they were weaker, would the strong living take away my responsibity for what happened?

    Also, steve2, Jesus said to treat one expelled from the congregation as a publican and a sinner. Jesus and his followers dined and otherwise associated with publicans and sinners, so this whole idea that the Bible says for the disfellowshipped to be shunned isn't true at all. As for the passage of Corinthians used by the Governing Body to justify their harsh shunning policy:

    1 Corinthians is also specific as to who these words apply to. This advice is in regards to a person "called a brother" who "is" a wrongdoer. No indication is given that they should be avoided when they are no longer recognised as a Jehovah's Witness brother.

    http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/disfellowship-shunning.php

    _______________________

    To this day, two memories stand out: Firstly, the sick-minded cruelty of that JW "friend" of my JW family

    I do not even "blame" that woman.

    Talk about psychobabble. You say someone engaged in "sick-minded cruelty", but then say you don't blame her.

    Do you know what the word blame means?

  • Eustace
    Eustace

    Religious or not religious, some individuals easily fall back on cruel acts and words

    To conspire to influence someone to only have close relationships with members of a particular religion, and then to conspire through the threat of serious punishment to wipe out all those close relationships at the same time, is a far greater emotional cruelty than anything enaged in by the leaders of any other religion nearly as large as the Jehovah's Witnesses.

    The JW hierachy really are an extreme outlier in terms of conspiring to inflict emotional torture on people, and I blame them for that.

    I don't look down on those who couldn't take the cruelty. I wish they had held out longer, hopefully long enough to get the help they needed to pull through, but I don't look down on them at all.

    The treatment doled out to the disfellowshipped is so extreme in its cruelty that it's clear where the responsibility really lies. 100% of the blame goes on the JW hierachy and the followers of that hierachy who go along with their dictates.

    I blame the hierachy more than the followers because the followers are under a serious threat of punishment themselves if they don't follow what the hierachy says to do. You can be disfellowshipped yourself for talking to the disfellowshipped.

    On the other hand if the Governing Body wanted to stop the madness, they could do so tomorrow without the slightest negative consequence for themselves. They don't do so just because it would take away their excessive control over the rank and file, and perhaps reduce the fervor with which their followers sing psalms to the Governing Body.

    The elders who vote to disfellowship people so often do so even though they could've just accepted the man or woman's apology, and could've done so with no consequences to themselves.

    The Governing Body and the elders are the ones I think are by far the most to blame.

  • flipper
    flipper

    JAMBON- It truly IS shameful- but WT Society leaders DO NOT CARE what happens to it's members inside or outside the organization. All of the JW's or those that leave are just numbers, statistics to WT leaders. All the WT leaders care about is the avancement and proliferation of the WT organization in a controlling, financial way. It's a business. Pretty cold, hard truth- but that's how it is. It's evil actually. And it's been this way for a long time, especially since Ted Jaracz stated in the early 1980's or late 1970's that " the needs of the organization take priority over the personal needs of individual Witnesses. " Or something close to that effect. It's been all controlling, calculating since then. The leaders of this organization do nOT have a conscience or moral compass. They just don't care. Peace out, mr. Flipper

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    To date the courts have not been willing to accept that the policies of the WTS cause people to commit suicide..

    The first rationale has been that any group, religious or otherwise, has the right to exclude people they don't want in the group.

    The second rationale has been that the Witnesses claim that since th eperson is no longer one of them they cannot be held responsible for what the person does.

    They can't see that there is a correlation between the expulsion and the suicide. The Witnesses claim that the suicide was due entirely to the extreme guilt the person experiences after doing whatever it was that resulted in the expulsion. And since the person is no longer a JW they cannot be responsible even if the suicide happens immediately after.

    These are people who can justify two opposite things being true at the same time. They play with words like someone playing Scrabble. The cognitive dissonance they experience will permit any JW, even those at the top, from seeing any direct relationship between the expulsion and the suicide

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    If you suggest that there is an incontrovertible link between suicidal gestures and being disfellowshipped you'd have to demonstrate that such a reaction is a natural consequence of being shunned. It is not - otherwise most of us here would be dead by now._____Steve

    For me, I believe you will find that the high rate of suicide in this religion has a common denominator

    Jehovah's Witnesses are constantly reminded " where else would they go " if they

    were no longer a JW

    They are trained to literally think they are " No part of the world " and are discouraged to develope

    relationships wit' Non- JW's that can serve as a support system when they leave

    They are brainwashed into thinkin' no one in the " world " cares

    .

    .

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