Do you think those at the top realise that it's their fault - suicide as a result of being disfellowshipped?

by jambon1 61 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Finkelstein

  The cognitive dissonance they experience will permit any JW, even those at the top, from seeing\

  any direct relationship between the expulsion and the suicide.

  Good point Lady Lee

  Many JWs would see one their disenfranchised member's suicide a consequence of leaving the

  flock and a result of being consumed by Satan's wicked system of things, in essence reconfirming

  their faith toward staying inside and identifying where they are in ( God's organization ).

  In a very irresponsible apathetic way, the suicide becomes something of a

  supporting reconfirmation toward their faith/beliefs.

  As sick and disturbing as this may seem, I've seen this a few times.
• 

  sabastious

  Yet to suggest disfellowshipping has a straightforward causal link to suicidal behaviour is drawing an extremely long bow.

  This isn't even close to true. The Watchtower are master record keepers and therefore turn their publishers into numbers in a vast database. Similar to the way insurance works they draw their fortune from the innovations created by these record keeping methods. With an insurance company it could be accounting tricks, but with a religion it's always doctrinal or divine organizational procedures. An insurance company who had a procedural method that indirectly resulted in death of any kind would invoke heavy litgation and monetary losses upon themselves. The company would naturally fight as hard as they possibly could to mitigate the damage to the corporation and stay alive.

  The fact is that the Watchtower creates your support system especially for those of us born into it. They don't allow you in their cliques unless you speak a certain language and follow a certain code. The code and language are wholly created by the Watchtower. Therefore any deaths caused indirectly by this all encompassing structure should also invoke heavy litigation and monetary losses. This is understood by the Watchtower which is why they have had so many secret settlements. If normal corperations have to suffer the losses who don't control every aspect of their customers lives how much more so with their product which does? They are liable for every crime that results from a loss of fellowship including assisting attempted suicide.

  Mind control affects our free will, but it's illogical to say that not a single person in the organization is liable, there is always someone who knows better. The rank and file are not simply following orders they are influenced by a system outside of their control. The more I study this system the more I realize that. There are only two ways to go, in and happy with your support system, or out in the ditch with nothing. Such a system has been proven by the Watchtower to be one that causes suicide and other types of violence. They claim to be God's mouthpiece and teach that you must die before your sins can be paid. Naturally, this could cause the emotionally unstable who suffer from self loathing to attempt suicide to achieve eternal bliss. Or worse they could even take others along with them believing they are doing them a favor. They are liable, very liable.

  -Sab
• 

  mamochan13

  Lady Lee, Finkelstein - the notion of JWs using suicide as proof that the Df'd person was consumed with guilt due to their "wrongdoing" is so twisted and sick, it leaves me speechless. But true, unfortunately.

  I was thinking about how the whole DFing policy empowers individual R&F JWs to behave in a hateful and cruel way towards others. The woman who called you "mental", Steve2, is a good example. Because they believe they have "the truth" in everything they do, no matter how dysfunctional or cruel, they are justified in all kinds of behaviours that would be unacceptable to the rest of the world.
• 

  Finkelstein

  the notion of JWs using suicide as proof that the Df'd person was consumed with guilt due to their "wrongdoing" is so twisted and sick

  There is an ever consuming and constant reconfirmation by JWS that they are being righteous in the eyes of the organization and of god's will.

  If a shocking and dramatic event such as someone who was once associated with the organization commits suicide, than this can be leveraged toward

  this intensional ambition.

  Cleaning one self of any probable wrong doing is also strenuously endeavored in this on going element of appealing righteousness.
• 

  Quendi

  This discussion has given me a lot to think about and I have appreciated everyone’s contributions to it. Apathy, cruelty and evil are very harsh words to aim at the WTS. Does the organization deserve to be labeled this way?

  I cannot choose but to say yes, and not exclusively in the way it “disciplines” its followers. The Society’s entire setup rests upon the foundation of manipulating and controlling its followers. As others have pointed out, it uses various means to do this. Some appear benign on the surface while others have a more visible manifestation. I’m sure the Governing Body is well aware of what it is doing in this respect. Many of the rank-and-file take a hear no, speak no and see no evil attitude. That indicates a moral failure rather than an intellectual one. You can see this when you attempt to discuss any of these points with faithful Witnesses. You’re branded an apostate before you can utter more than a hundred words on the subject.

  But the problem of suicide among Jehovah’s Witnesses is a very serious one. As I’ve said before, I think steve2 is right to point out the personal responsibility each of us has to safeguard our mental and emotional health. On the other hand, the Society and its officers have been quite active and aggressive in maintaining the status quo in the organization by any means necessary. They know people are being harmed yet have steadfastly refused to admit any responsibility, blame or error. Instead, they blame the victims, saying they came to a bad end because they refuse to accept Jehovah’s discipline and submit to his “spirit-directed organization.” Nevertheless, “their end shall be according to their works.”
• 

  Theocratic Sedition

  Those at the top are insulated from the emotional aspect of it all. It's kinda like Americans watching the news and seeing a report about their own goverment bombing another country and the report mentions the civilians that got murked in the process. Too bad, but none the less......collateral damage. Or even watching the local news and seeing someone that got shot in a different neighborhood. I didn't know him, wasn't in my community, glad I don't live there, etc.. Even if someone at the top of the WT's food chain did have a more sensitive heart than most, his belief of having a duty before God will prevent him from giving a you know what about someone DF'd committing suicide.
• 

  00DAD

  Nothing is ever their fault. It's part of their Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
• 

  steve2

  I do not "blame" the JW woman for her action in talking about me to another JW right in front of me, yet I can also maintain that this woman needs to take responsibility for choosing to so express her cruel view in the manner she did (calculated to both warn the other JW with her and to verbalize to me her strong disdain for me).

  While some posters here are not persuaded there is any difference between the word "blaming" and the phrase "taking responsibility for", I have a different view. The former word - blame - is about finding who "caused" something to happen (a word that is great for finger-pointing), whereas the latter phrase - taking responsibility for - identifies the person who carried out an action regardless of whether blame is identified or expected.

  I accept that some people will see virtually no difference in the two; so be it. I choose the phrase "taking responsibility for" because it makes room for multiple influences and causes rather than often simplistic dividing people into Big Bad Perpetrators or Hapless Victims Who Kill Themselves.

  Lady Lee makes some very compelling points about why secular agents such as the judicial system are loathe to deprive religious groups of the right to develop their own policies on Membership Inclusion and Exclusion. Hers is a helpful addition to the present exchange of views on this topic.

  BTW, because I (dare to) suggest that the matter of shunning and its "causes" is more complex than some here prefer to think, does not mean I think it is okay and even forgivable what people in the religion do in the name of obedience to their "Leaders". For the record, I totally deplore the Watchtower's policies on shunning - on that much I agree with what others have said.
• 

  Finkelstein

  I don't think its the shunning by other JWS in each person's Kingdom Hall that creates dire problems, its the shunning by ones own family members

  that really causes the real damage and hurt.

  Having your own brother and sisters disown you or your own parents, may push people to extreme unbalanced emotional states.
• 

  clarity

  Marvelous thread & Mamochan love what you wrote here,

  >

  I was thinking about how the whole DFing policy empowers individual R&F JWs to behave in a hateful and cruel way towards others. The woman who called you "mental", Steve2, is a good example. Because they believe they have "the truth" in everything they do, no matter how dysfunctional or cruel, they are justified in all kinds of behaviours that would be unacceptable to the rest of the world

  clarity