Questions for DFShipped...

by LDH 58 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  DFshipped

  LDH
  Not so fast girl.
  I asked you to show me a quote from the WBTS condoning or supporting the act of voting. ( presumably in a political sense as you mentioned Malawi )
  You implied that the wbts has changed their view point.
  Im not sure why you quoted the wt 99 qfr. It sort of contradicts what you had said.
  Did you notice that it quoted and re-iterated the comments from the 1950 WT. It was partly due to that very 1950 WT that the Malawian brothers made there decisions.
  But let me shed mpre light on what happened in Malawi. Were the witnesses persecuted there for not voting ? NO.
  They were persecuted for not buying and carrying a political Party card identifying themselves as memebers of the one and only political party of the country. What a fine example of neutrality. And the 99 wt does not in anyway condone political voting, it re-emphasizes and re-iterates and repeats its direction which is now more than 50 years old. It is a matter of conscience. Anyone ( JW or other ) who considers themselves neutral would not take sides in the political arena. It would be a contradiction in terms.
  I was in SA during the 1st democratic election in that counrty. Many of our bro's and sis's were forcibly taken to the voting polls and they did exactly as described in the 99wt. They went inside and ignored or dmaged the ballot. ( some may have voted and as the wt said it is between them and their creator.

  When I left school at age 17 I was drafted into the military. The WT had shown that it was important to remain neutral in support of the scriptures. I refused military service and was jailed for 15 months.
  I am not slightly sorry. My conscience dicated and I obeyed.

  Let me say without fear of contradiction : Visit Malawi now and by the far the vast majority of the Witnesses persecuted in Malawi and Mozambique and their families are happy to have been imprisoned for the truth as Jesus had predicted. And the survivin gfamily of those killed rejoice in th eknowledge that Jehovah will resurected obedient servants.
  So LDH I think you may have missed the message in the 99WT
  Instead of eating my hat,
  I TAKE MY HAT OFF TO THE WONDERFUL 50 YEAR ( AT LEAST ) RECORD OF CONSISTENCY OF TEACHING EXPRESSED BY THE WBTS.
• 

  happytobefree

  DF,

  You seem to be a REAL company man (WTBS), why do you waste your time on this type of db, if you are really interested in returning. From reading your post. I get the impression that you wholeheartedly (great JW term) believe everything the WTBS has ever printed and would die for every word. So it would seem (even though you are Disfelloshipped) that this type of DB would make you spiritually weak (in the JW definition) or hinder your progress in returning.

  Not that I'm trying to persuade you to stop posting. But what is your real reason in coming here - To reconvert the apostates? Even though I don't personally buy a person who has true faith or beliefs can be persuaded to leave their convictions. Which make me wonder - As a JW when someone spoke of doubts or questions that made me think, I would think they were trying to hurt me or change me. But now when I hear others doubts/questions about any subject, I think, wow, that's a interesting way to think about that - But I never think of them hurting me or changing my views.

  Happy to be Free (Me)
• 

  DFshipped

  Thanks for the reply
  LDH started this thread by saying I do not need to label myself.
  Should yo ulabel me a company man ? mmm
  You ask why I come here? I come here to express my thoughts feelings and opinions. .........LIKE YOU AND MOST OTHERS HERE.
  I didnt realize that the only views that would be accepted here without criticism was those that opposed the WBTS.
  The hypocrisy that so many here blame those in the organization for, appears resident here more than ever.
  This board is hailed as a wonderful place for open minded tolerant people who enjoy open discussion.
  Am I not allowed to be impressed with the WBTS ?
  Am not allowed to freely express my deep love for the Organization?
  I'm sorry I thought this was a place to express and defend my opinions. Yet I get attacked by most ( not all ) when I defend my point of view.
  I'm afraid this board has adopted a policy of : You can say what you like as ling it doesnt support the WBTS . If one does that it is an abuse of free tolerant speech that we so loudly advertise.
  It seems to me the more different you want to be the more you are the same.
  I came here to express my views. You all do the same.
  You criticize the WBTS and feel you have the right to do it.
  I support the WBTS and you label me a company man, and accuse me of wanting to convert apostates.
  Me thinks there are double standards among some here !!!
• 

  Pathofthorns

  Hi everyone.

  Lisa, I would have to agree with DFS that the article you mention does not indicate that Witnesses are actually free to decide if they want to vote in a political election.

  The article is a brilliant piece of work that re-itterates a long held position in the minds of witnesses while at the same time gives the impression to "worldly" governments that we are free to vote. Unfortunately many witnesses also got mixed up with the confusing [double-speak?]language.

  HappytobeFree, I don't really agree with your label of DFS as a "company man". Otherwise he would not be here and he would not be Dfed.

  I find your comments interesting DFS. Perhaps I'd share your sentiments if I could find satisfying answers to the questions about the Organization that troubled me and probably most here. You seem like you know the questions, but how do you answer them to serve God/the Organization in good conscience?

  Path
• 

  happytobefree

  Path,

  I stand by my OPINION of DF, if he was in good standing with the WTBS he would not be here. And he would put us in the same light as any good JW - as being an APOSTATE.

  I was never Disfellowshipped, but was disassociated before i was baptized (they use to do this to unbaptized publishers), and I know I would have never associated with known APOSTATES at that time. Because I still thought the WTBTS was God's chosen organiation and I felt they would have made my condition worse (being spiritually weak). And I strongly defended the WTBTS as if I was one of the most faithful (even though I was DA'd). I was a company person put on probabtion. But i did not have any problem associating with so-called worldy people (the fornicators, drunkards, and the likes), because there was still hope for these people and I hoped that they would one day accept the JW faith.

  DF,

  I never said you should not post, or I thought negatively about your post. I just find your beliefs (re: associating with known apostates), to contradict with what you say you want to do (return to the organization). I was wondering out loud (by posting), why a person who is sincere about returning to the Organization, would be here. I have a sister who is disfellowshipped and when i tell here to investigate the WTBS or speak anything that would seem to be offensive - she instantly changes the conversation. Even though she has not been inside a KH in about 1 1/2 years.

  So my questions would be: Why are you REALLY here? And I don't buy your reply about finding other Disfellowshipped ones who are trying to get back. Because I know if you want to get back, the people you should be talking to - is the judicial committe who disfellowshipped you.

  Happy to Be Free (Me)

  Edited by - happytobefree on 2 February 2001 21:40:48
• 

  LDH

  Path,

  You know what? You are right. That article, like many others, is a masterful piece of doubletalk.

  I don't know why I would expect a Witness to notice the difference in the wording, when in fact it was written in such a way to *seemingly* make it appear that our stance hasn't changed one bit.

  Let's see, in addition to Oral Sex, Anal Sex,Talking with df'd family members, and Blood Transfusions, *VOTING* is now a 'conscience matter.'

  Wht strikes me as the interesting, all of these are *private concerns* anyway. So why do we need someone to tell us what is a conscience matter? So that the terms 'spiritually mature' can be invoked. As is, "Voting is a conscience matter. But Spiritually Mature Christians may not want to stumble others by engaging in political activity." Hogwash.

  Df'd is obviously having his own crisis of conscience, here, folks. That's why he's here in this forum. He can't talk to any 'real' Witness, so we'll do in the meantime.

  One ? DF'd. Why do you want to be included in a group that doesn't want you; and are those that turn their back on you in your time of need your real friends?
• 

  LDH

  PS, almost forgot. DF'd, you wrote:

  ::Did you notice that it quoted and re-iterated the comments from the 1950 WT. It was partly due to that very 1950 WT that the Malawian brothers made there decisions.

  But let me shed mpre light on what happened in Malawi. Were the witnesses persecuted there for not voting ? NO.::

  If the Malawi issue wasn't regarding voting, why would the 1950 WT be a factor in their decision making, and why in 1999, would it need to be 'reiterated' in an article that is , OBVIOUSLY ABOUT VOTING!!! (Not about carrying political cards)

  Especially since you point out that the Malawian brothers weren't persecuted for not voting.

  (Did anyone tell them that?)
• 

  DFshipped

  LDH
  Lets bring this discussion to an end.
  If you read the WT again you will get the full picture.
  Finally ask yourself this very important question :
  How much voting do think takes place or is allowed in a ONE PARTY STATE ????
  Malawi was a one party state !! Buying a card was not a vote but an acknowledgement of Party membership and support.
  If you would really like some complete info on what happened there let me know.
  Path
  I will be happy to talk some more with you soon.
• 

  Deacon

  Df.

  You are the epitome of hypocrisy.

  You know you should not be here by the standards of Jehovahs Witnesses for one intending to be reinstated..
  disfellowshipped..As a person put out of the congregation, you have no right to defend a policy of acceptance within this auspicious group of ne'er do wells....

  I dislike your mindset intensely, for you are the very essence of the double standards of some Jehovahs Witnesses....

  If you are going to stand up for being a Witness, i say to you GET OUT of mixing with the unclean thing....er...us...because you are right in one respect, we will discuss HONEST issues...not double standards....

  sheesh.

  Edited by - Deacon on 3 February 2001 17:21:40
• 

  Pathofthorns

  DFShipped:

  I would be interested in what you have to share about the Malawi incident. I was too young at the time to appreciate what happened and obviously Lisa is also lacking in some facts about what happened.

  Since we (u and me, not lisa... lol) know that there was only ONE political party, do you believe that it could have been conscientiously viewed by some witnesses as acceptable to accept such a card? Perhaps it could be viewed as obeying Caesar even and acknowledging the local government, and since there were no other parties, the act could not be mistaken as elevating one party above another.

  Ray Franz drew reference to this incident in one of his books. Particularly disturbing was that at the same time Witnesses were being beaten, raped and killed for their stand in Malawi, the Governing Body was turning a blind eye to the bribing of officials in Mexico so the brothers could get out of [if i recall correctly] a two year compulsary military sevice. Do you believe it was right to permit what was going on in mexico, while at the same time not permitting the Malawan brothers to buy the card if their consciences permitted it?

  I do give the Malawi brothers and sisters great respect and admiration for their courage and for holding to their convictions in the face of all they went through.

  The sad thing, is could there have been a way out for them if their consciences allowed it? Why was what was going on in mexico permitted while the brothers in Malawi were enduring horrible persecutions?

  In view of the bold stand taken on a relatively minor matter by the Malawi brothers and sisters, why has the Society actually softened their position against the Governments of the world in recent years?

  When was the last time you heard a "hard-hitting" resolution denouncing world leaders and "putting them on notice" that unless they concede to God's Kingdom he's going to destroy them? That is our message isn't it? Then why have we hidden our true message in the last hours of this system? Why have we sold out, unlike the brothers in Malawi who died for not buying a card acknowledging the only ONE party in the land?

  This is the disturbing thing about being a Witness. When your conscience is telling you one thing and the WTBS is telling you another. And many times, many consciences have turned out to be correct as the WTBS changes their former understanding because of "new light". The problem is that in the meantime, you have to violate your own bible conscience for the sake of "unity". (Conformity)

  Path