by Change Name 138 Replies latest watchtower bible
Hi again recovering - I could be misinformed. Then, so can you. They claim that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE. They claim Bible chronology is more accurate and reliable than the secular evidences. That is their defense. They trust the Bible.
Thank you for your answer, however i challange you to quote the book chapter and verse where the bible says 607bc is the date of Jerusalem's destruction. If you can I will apolagize and attend the closest kingdom hall.
hi changename , re Russell thought that the end times would be 1914 I have just been looking at some of the old Watchtower stuuf on another thread , thanks Barbara Anderson .From " the great pyramid" 1913.
I quote "and in this connection let us remember that this date limit-AD1914-must not only witness the completion of the selection and trial and glorification of the entire body of Christ " pge 64
" Call to mind that the scriptures showed us that the full end of gentile power in the world , and of the time of trouble which brings its overthrow , will follow the end of AD 1914, and that some time before that date the last members of the church of Christ will have been " changed " glorified . pge 62
One thing I have noticed is that former JW's choose their beliefs over their families.
Evidence please!
Bumping for change name. I want you to read my post.
Here's what they tell the kiddies about lying in the March 2013 Public Watchtower, page 14 and 15:
Hi again Satanus - I have been talking with apostates to Jehovah's Witnesses for a little while. In my experience with them, they want to direct all conversations about how Jehovah's Witnessses are the lowest forms of people who do not have the right to worship their God the way they want. They claim that all Jehovah's Witnesses are slaves to the "evil Watchtower" and the equally evil "governing body". I have heard that they are accused of worshiping the governing body as God and that they are brainwashed fools.
Apostate Jehovah's Witnesses are not a nice community and I will tell you that it does not matter what I believe since we are not talking about me. Because of the hatred that apostate Jehovah's Witnesses for current Jehovah's Witnesses, you folks have your heads buried in the sand because you refuse to consider the opposite side of the argument.
Hi 2+2=5 - I am always honest in what I say and do. There is no reason for me to lie about anything I write here. Why do you think what the Jehovah's Witnesses believed 100 years ago have any bearing in what they believe today? From what I have read, they also smoked cigarettes and celebrated holidays.
Do Jehovah's Witnesses lie? From what I have experienced personally and through reading their apologetics, no. Most here argue that being wrong is lying. I disagree with them.
I seldom read people who cut and paste WT literature when they "expose the WT" because the quotes are selective and do not explain the article. In my research, each and every cut and paste I have read have been quoted without the context it was written in.
Hi jhine - You keep saying they leave out something that others are "entitled to know" but never actually say what they leave out. What do you want to to tell you that they are leaving out? From what I understand, others are not entitled to know where a JW's family is in order to bring them to harm because of their religious beliefs. In reading the context of the articles quoted, this is what the JW's mean when they say others are not "entitled to know". Others, like the apostates they shun, already know the information so they do not "throw pearls before swine". Look at Jesus' experience at not giving the full information to his brothers about his future whereabouts at the time of the festival of the tabnernacles.
So, what kind of information do you want to know apart from understanding the Bible. When you teach somebody about your Christian faith, do you go over all the scandals that your people have gone through since the 5th century, especially the horrible ones in the 20th and 21st centuries?
Hi again Data-Dog - I understood your point about Jehovah hating the lie. I think you are having trouble understanding the Jehovah's Witnesses position about lying. They teach that nobody should lie at any time. But they are "not under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it". The JWs teach that they should "chose either to say nothing or to divert the conversation in another direction" in stead of lying.
I think you are on the opposite side of the issue and will not consider what I am saying. Mainstream Christians tell Jehovah's Witnesses that they changed the Bible meaning when they translated the NWT. Jehovah's Witnesses will tell Mainstream Christians that they changed it in the first place.
Hi againwasblind - One thing about that notion is that the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they were coming out of Babylon the Great and they were casting aside false teachings. They know that their organization is full of people who are sinners. Why do you think they write so many articles about keeping Christian values and morals on a regular basis? Can they be wrong? Of course they can be wrong! Why do you think that because they were wrong on some of their expectation that they deserve the title false prophet?
Hi again Data-Dog - Disfellowshiping somebody who does not believe a human's interpretation of an existing prophesy? Dunno anything about it. Disfellowshipping of a Jehovah's Witness, from what I understand, is because they practiced and refused to give up immoralites or they caused divisions in the Church with a teaching not of that Church.
Hi LisaRose - You must understand that I do not have a full understanding of their past interpretation of Bible prophecies. I know what they teach today. From what I have read from the Jehovah's Witnesses, they have interpreted Bible prophesies and applied them to the time they lived in. They think that Jesus will bring the kingdom to Earth in their lifetime. There is nothing wrong with that. The 1st century Christians definately believed that Jesus would return to the Earth during their lifetime. It appears as if you believe that a Christian should not look forward to Jesus' return and anybody who does believe this are false prophets.
I enjoyed what this person had to say about Russell:
" Attempting to determine dates of future scriptural events in order to encourage fellow Christians was important to Russell (and Rutherford). If they did it honestly and publicly (which they did), it was a part of prophesying (in the sense of speaking out publicly), but it was obviously never considered as (nor promoted as) infallible inspired prediction! Nor was it considered to be an essential element of the essential work of a modern Christian "prophet." When it comes to proclaiming the truth of essential Bible doctrines, "where else is there to go?"" [Link]
Russell did think that the Gentile times would end in 1914. He did hope that he would go to heaven in that year. Here is what another person found out about Russell said aboput 1914.
"C. T. Russell himself had warned against private speculations. For instance, he discussed the end of the Gentile Times and then said in The Watch Tower of December 1, 1912: “Finally, let us remember that we did not consecrate [dedicate] either to October, 1914, nor to October, 1915, or to any other date, but ‘unto death.’ If for any reason the Lord has permitted us to miscalculate the prophecies, the signs of the times assure us that the miscalculations cannot be very great. And if the Lord’s grace and peace be with us in the future as in the past, according to His promise, we shall rejoice equally to go or to remain at any time, and to be in His service, either on this side the veil or on the other side [on earth or in heaven], as may please our Master best."
"So, there were great expectations concerning 1914 on the part of many of the Bible Students. Yet, they also had received sound admonition in pages of The Watch Tower. Indeed, some Christians thought they were ‘going home’ to heaven in the autumn of that year. “But,” says C. J. Woodworth, “October 1st, 1914, came and went—and years accumulated after that date—and the anointed were still here on earth. Some grew sour and fell away from the truth. Those who put their trust in Jehovah saw 1914 as truly a marked time—the ‘beginning of the end’—but they also realized their previous concept was wrong concerning the ‘glorification of the saints,’ as it was stated. They now perceived that much work yet remained for the faithful anointed ones—and of that group my father [Clayton J. Woodworth] was one.”" [Link]
Hi there 144001 - Yes. People like to throw around accusations. I have never been a part of this forum before. This is my first time here. My one and only screen name is "Change Name".
Hi again jgnat - I did attend all the meetings and events and was a regular in the field. Yes, I will go to the memorial. In talking with you folks, I have decided to go back and start attending/ participating in the congregation again.
Hi Finkelstein - Yeah, you cannot say anything positive about the people that threw you out and use them as a crutch in your defense of your truth. I can tell you that the JW's I know are not ignorant lazy minded people. All people who belong to a religion think they are special. Born again Christians believe they are the only Christians. Muslims believe they are chosen by God. The Jews believe they are also chosen by God. Which one "walks the walk and talks the talk"? Obviously you do not believe it is Jehovah's Witnesses.
Hi Dismissing Servant - I gave LisaRose two links to read. Maybe you want to read through them and see what Russell taught.
Hi there TD - Are you employing a little bit of your own theocratic warfare in your cut and pastes? Yet, as you are full aware of, cut and pastes can be very deceiving. I did some investigation into the first quote. It was quoted accurately. But the idea behind your quote was that the WT was lying that Russell believed that Jesus would return invisibly. In reading some of the early Watchtower articles [link], it appears that Russell believed that Jesus was already present on the Earth, but invisible. He did teach that Jesus' presence would be invisible.
Hi again Pterist - I am learning the history from the source. I do not count on other people doing the research for me. Russell did expect the end of the gentile times. He did hope that he would be taken up to heaven. Like the 1st century Christians, he did not have full understanding of what the Bible prophesies meant and misunderstood much. From reading some of his writings, he knew that 1914 marked a significant year.
Hi again Finklestein - I have never been a member of this forum under any other name.
Hi again TD - Wish you would have given references. Too much to ask? Here are all the WT magazines from 1879 - 1916 [link]. I can tell you that Russell believed Jesus was on the Earth invivbly leading his congregation using the invisible angels in the harvesting.
Hi again wasblind - Truth is always the same. Its peoples interpretion of truth that in an issue. I have noticed that most here blindly believe those who oppose Jehovah's Witneses. Some are very lazy. I just read a few paragraphs from a Watchtower magazine from 1879 that says that Jesus' return was invisible but another here said that Russell did not teach that. Could it be that those who oppose the Witnesses make false accusations?
Hi again Finklestein - How about quoting the article and then do some research [yourself] by searching for the answer through the old WT magazines to see if they did lie.
Hi again Dismissing Servant - I am beginning to think that most of you do not do your own research into what was taught by Russell and his Bible students. It is interesting that he did believe that Jesus was invisible on the Earth harvesting wheat from the tares. But he also taught that they could be wrong in their expectations and that they should never stop because of a date. Why do you suppose that opposers to Jehovah's Witnesses do not bring out these things?
Hi Gopher - You could read all the older WT magazine to see what they taught. It is interesting reading.
Hi problematic - I have not been baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I am not pretending anything. I am who I am and have no reason to lie to anybody.
1) Yes, I have said so myself. I would lie to spare the life of my family or friends in the face of grave danger. The Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach this. They teach "a person is not under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it". The JWs teach that we should "chose either to say nothing or to divert the conversation in another direction".
2) From everything I have read from the JW's, the JW's tell themselves to be honest in all things. They will follow the lead of people like Jesus would did not give full information about his plans in order to throw off those who were looking to kill him. Jesus did not tell his brothers his full plans. This is what the JW's teach. I am not sure why this information escaped you since you have been associated with the Witnesses all your life.
This elder book I have seen and have read some of it. It is not secret but at the same time it is intended only for the elders. Most people, after hearing about the "secret elder guidebook", want to know why it is intended just for the elders. Its those people who have it out for the JW's that take this information and twist it to make the JW's look bad.
Your PS - I see things from a different perspective that you in regards to DFing. People who leave the morals, teachings and standards of the Jehovah's Witnesses do so with the full understanding of what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Bible tells them to do. It is not the Jehovah's Witnesses choice. The choice is with the one who leaves them. It is offensive to me that you lay the blame on the JW's rather than the ones who choose to leave. I do not know many who left the Jehovah's Witnesses. In listening to the JW's about this very thing, it is a very large would they they tend to when their family leaves what they think of as Chrsitianity. Many are still hurt years and decades later. Through it all they are obeying what the Bible says about dealing with former Christians.
Hereis an interesting article on this very subject [link]
Hi again recovering - Please disprove the 607 BCE date without using secular sources. Consider this link [link].
Hi Change Name....We are waiting for you in the UN/NGO thread!
So...do you deny the teachings of 1799 and 1874??
Hi Dismissing servant - I have family coming down for the weekend so I will respond to the NGO/UN thread after that.
"Why do you think what the Jehovah's Witnesses believed 100 years ago have any bearing in what they believe today? "
Because they claimed to have the truth! As they do today! Please tell us that this was only a bad joke. In other case..you have some thinking to do.
" From what I have read from the Jehovah's Witnesses, they have interpreted Bible prophesies and applied them to the time they lived in. They think that Jesus will bring the kingdom to Earth in their lifetime. There is nothing wrong with that. The 1st century Christians definately believed that Jesus would return to the Earth during their lifetime. "
Nothing wrong with it??????? Ha ha ha..you are funny! Now I know; you are not a troll, not a JW apologist...you are a computer comedian!
