A question about lying and the Jehovah's Witnesses

by Change Name 138 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Pterist
    Pterist

    ChangeName****Hi again Pterist - I am learning the history from the source. I do not count on other people doing the research for me. Russell did expect the end of the gentile times. He did hope that he would be taken up to heaven. Like the 1st century Christians, he did not have full understanding of what the Bible prophesies meant and misunderstood much. From reading some of his writings, he knew that 1914 marked a significant year*****

    The first century Christians had the TRUTH, they preached Truth, The Truth enabled them to be UNITED IN LOVE in their DIVERSITY, That Truth was a PERSON. John 14:6

    God will not judge us by official church or organisational teachings, but by our true heart and life in view of our opportunities and the light we had. The WBTS trusts in their own doctrinal accuracy for salvation rather than trusting solely and wholly in Jesus Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

  • TD
    TD
    Hi there TD - Are you employing a little bit of your own theocratic warfare in your cut and pastes? Yet, as you are full aware of, cut and pastes can be very deceiving. I did some investigation into the first quote. It was quoted accurately.

    Let me help you out here:

    "In 1879, however, it became clear which “second coming” voice was being chosen by Jehovah to speak the pure language as his Witnesses. By then a small Bible-study group led by Charles Taze Russell was meeting in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, U.S.A. They had become certain that Jesus’ second coming would begin his invisible presence, that a time of world distress was ahead, and that this would be followed by the Thousand Year Reign of Christ that would restore Paradise on earth, with eternal life for obedient humans."
    (The Watchtower May 1, 1991 p. 17 emphasis mine)

    By his own testimony in the July 1906 issue of Zion's Watch Tower, Charles Taze Russell first came across Nelson Barbour's work in January of 1876. He was so intrigued with Barbour's time calculations that he paid Barbour's expenses to come to Philidelphia and meet with him. Nelson Barbour convinced Russell that Christ's invisible presence had commenced in the fall of 1874 and was already underway.

    The May, 1881 issue of Zion's Watch Tower states on page 5:

    "We would like to correct this misapprehension once for all, by stating that we do not expect Jesus to come this year, nor any other year, for we believe that all time prophecies (bearing upon Jesus' coming) ended at and before the fall of 1874 and that He came there and the second advent is now in progress and will continue during the entire Millennial age."

    Russell accepted the 1874 date for the rest of his life and it was taught well into the Rutherford Presidency after Russell's death. For example, 41 years later, the November 1, 1922 edtion of The Watch Tower stated on page 333

    "Bible prophecy shows that the Lord was due to appear for the second time in the year 1874. Fulfilled prophecy shows beyond a doubt that he did appear in 1874. Fulfilled prophecy is otherwise designated the physical facts; and these facts are indisputable."

    Russell and the Bible Students never at any point regarded the parousia as a future event. Therefore it is incorrect to say that, "They had become certain that Jesus’ second coming would begin his invisible presence..." as it amounts to an assertion that the parousia was a future event relative to the Bible Students in 1879, which is utter nonsense and completely untrue.

    But the idea behind your quote was that the WT was lying that Russell believed that Jesus would return invisibly. In reading some of the early Watchtower articles [link], it appears that Russell believed that Jesus was already present on the Earth, but invisible. He did teach that Jesus' presence would be invisible.

    In the absence of a distinct anchor point, it is true that the future tense in English is not always indicative of posteriority. However that is clearly not the case in the examples I gave which deal with specific persons and groups prior to 1914 and therefore have clear temporal relationships vis a vis the event(s) described in the future tense.

    With this in mind, perhaps you can spot the problems in the other examples I provided?

    Let's take the second example:

    "As for the time of Christ’s second presence, Daniel’s prophecy is again the one that gives the chronology for it. (Dan. 4:16) It was figured out as pointing to A.D. 1914, and The Watchtower called notice to the significance of 1914 in the year 1879." (The Watchtower November 1, 1952 p. 658)

    This breaks down into three assertions:

    a. Daniel's prophecy gives the chronology for Christ's second presence

    b. It was figured out as pointing to 1914

    c. The Watchtwoer called notice to the significance of 1914 in 1879

    All Jehovah's Witnesses accept statement 'a' as true. Statement 'b' is also true in JW theology, but it did not become true until the early 1930's when the 1874 date was discarded and therefore by the time the significance of the chronology was understood it was pointing backward rather than forward. Statement 'c' is also true, but both the 19th century time frame as well as the meaning assigned to the "significance of 1914" are not the same as that of statement 'b'.

    Simply put, the "significance of 1914 in the year 1879" had absolutely nothing to do with "the time of Christ's second presence." This is a time worn technique of misdirection called implication through ambiguity and ocurrs when a number of statments that the target audience accepts as true are strung together in an equivocal manner.

    Hopefully, I think I can forestall any quibblilng by simply providing a more direct example:

    "Today, Jehovah's Witnesses point to the "sign" given by Jesus and look back upon 1914 as the year when his invisible presence in Kingdom power became a reality. But how could they have had advance knowledge of such a momentous event?" Not because of extraordinary human wisdom. No, but because they have prayerfully studied the Scriptures, heeded God's prophetic word and paid more than the usual attention to what God's Son foretold." (The Watchtower April 1, 1984 p. 16 emphasis mine)

    The 19th century Bible Students had no such advance knowledge since they looked upon the Christ's invisible presence in Kingdom power as a past, not a future event. Statments like this abound in the literature of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Hi again TD - Wish you would have given references. Too much to ask?

    Not at all.

    Russell believed and taught that the "Time of the End" began in 1799 when the Pope was deposed from the Papal states. This was taught up until 1927 (Last clear reference to 1799 as the "Time of the End" occured in the 1927 book, Creation on page 293)

    Russell believed and taught that the Parousia commenced in 1874. This was taught up until 1932 (Last clear reference to 1874 as the start of the parousia ocurred in the 1929 book Prophecy. First clear reference to 1914 as the start of this event in The Watchtower ocurred in the December 1, 1933 issue. Less clear references ocurred in 1932)

    Russell believed and taught that Christ received kingly power to rule in 1878. This was taught up until 1925 (The 1878 date was explained on page 239 of Millennial Dawn Volume II. It was modified in the July 1, 1920 issue of The Watch Tower on page 196. In 1925, Rutherford specfically applied Revelation 12 to that event in the March 1st Watchtower article, 'Birth of a Nation', which was a major milepost in the doctrinal history of Jehovah's Witnesses that is still pointed to today.)

    Russell believed and taught that 1914 was the end point of a 40 year long "Time of Trouble" and harvest work starting in 1874. 1914 was the farthest point of the rule of imperfect men and the point when Christ's reign actively began on earth. (This was explained in Millennial Dawn Volume II - The Time is at Hand. Specific pages of interest would include 98 - 101)

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    OUCH...

    What happens when assertions meet truth?

    Sinking animated gif Sorry Change-name. Maybe changed-pants would be more accurate for your next pseudonym. You just theologically fell asleep at the helm and crapped your pantalones..

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    Hi againwasblind - Of course they can be wrong! Why do you think that because they were wrong on some of their expectation that they deserve the title false prophet?

    Question: What makes the expectation that didn't come true in Hananiah's prophecy any Different from the expectations of the WTS ???

    When they both claim thier message was from God????

    Hananiah said:

    " This is what Jehovah of armies , the God of Israel has said "___Jeremiah 28:2

    And the WTS said :

    " Thus what is taught is not from men but from Jehovah ."_____Sept 15 2010 WT page 13 para 8

    Hi again wasblind - Truth is always the same. Its peoples interpretion of truth that in an issue.

    Once the interpretations of the beliefs changed, that means what the WTS taught as true is no longer considered true

    I just read a few paragraphs from a Watchtower magazine from 1879 that says that Jesus' return was invisible but another here said that Russell did not teach that. Could it be that those who oppose the Witnesses make false accusations?

    The WTS has a penchant for changin' the " TROOF "

    I read in the Reasoning book that the WTS claimed jesus return invisible in 1914.

    What's the WTS excuse for the change ?

    Oops, we didn't see 'em ????

    .

  • villagegirl
    villagegirl

    I can only speak from my own experience. I had a friend, while I was an active publisher.

    She was a licensed Day Care provider. She has gone to school before she became a wittness,

    she was well trained and experienced, having worked for a College Day Care Center.

    She now ran a Day Care out of her house.

    Over the course of time, it came to light that children she was taking care had been sexually abused.

    The children were the children of an elder. She KNEW they were being sexually abused, she could tell

    from their blatant behavior and innapropriate sexual knowledge, ( they were pre-schoolers )

    She knew the father and mother, and said NOTHING to anyone including nothing to the Police.

    It was her legal and moral responsibilty to report this, but she did not, because she didn't want to

    accuse an elder. His name was David Mochart of the Santa Barbara, California, congregation.

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose

    DIsmissing Servant. I am sorry Lisa..but I don't like when people are beeng named trolls! I think Change Name is an apologist.....that's allright with me, but he/she has made a lot of effort to respont in the threads. Treat him/her with respect..we have all been JW-apologists! Well, at least most of us....including me.

    You are right, I did not mean to use that term, I think it is over used and not right in this case anyway. I meant to say he is a apologist. I doubt he is a bible student as he says, but he is not a troll. Change Name, I apologize for calling you a troll. I still will not respond to further posts, as I feel you are not considering my points, but are just restating the same tired arguments as the WTBTS

  • MC RubberMallet
    MC RubberMallet

    Change Name. I wont argue you. I disagree with you on several points, but you make good arguments.

    Therefore, I would just like to ask you to play by your rules consisently.

    Please explain to me scripturally why Catholicism is NOT the true religion. But, do so without

    1) bringing up anything negative in their history or anything their popes and other leadership have done. Those are off limits because they are imperfect humans, after all.

    2) Also, incorrect doctrine is moot because Jehovah sees the heart. They have misunderstandings, just like those in Biblical history.

    3) Last, but most importantly, prove they aren't the true religion without being critical. Being critical is Satanic.

    Would you be able to dothis for me?

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Change Name

    A question about lying and the Watchtower Society.

    How many times did the Watchtower not feel you deserved to know the truth? You know what I mean? Like when they didn't feel you deserved to know the truth about their membership in the United Nations? How many years was that secret (truth) kept from YOU?

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    Change Name, I said

    What agreement has the temple of God with idols. 2Cor 6:15 NRSV

    It makes me think of this scripture.

    You said

    Hi Uncantnom - uhmm OKay.

    This is why it made me think of the scripture

    The United Nations I believe was identified as the Image of the Wild Beast according to the book Revelation Its grand Climax At hand. Published by the WBTS.

    According to how I understand the book the purpose of the image is to promote worship of the seven headed wild beast. The book mentions the image in Daniel on the plains of Dura and we know the Hebrews did not worship it. They didnt bow to it they didnt serve it.

    My thoughts were that serving the UN could be similar.

    Having identified oneself as true christian and serving the image of the wild beast secretly could be serious I think if this were true, but i could be wrong.

    (The secretly would be kind of untruthful to God)

  • Ucantnome
    Ucantnome

    So my post was about lying and the Un

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