by cptkirk 49 Replies latest watchtower bible
and btw tec the sentence that you quoted me on, i mainly said that because when i clicked on the url that mp posted, i saw it was like 30,000 words. so, my main point was, i'm not going there because i've looked at the details and formed conclusions...i don't need to re-
visit the entire thing at that level.
Gotcha.
Peace,
tammy
TEC:
I just think people taking his words and using them to twist and manipulate others... is on them, and not on Christ. People can find a reason to twist and manipulate even the most innocent of things. Including 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you'.
mP:
im guessing that im in that list of peopple who twist. If you mean me in this case say so, im big boy i can handle it, im not going to cry.
I would suggest that you look at a dictionary. I have not twisted anything i present scriptures and read them for what they say. My assumptions are far closer and match the text than yours which very quickly diverge and introduce concepts that are completely foriegn to the text.
TEC:
I don't think you are attempting to malign Christ, either.
mP:
Your sounding a lot like many muslims who get all angry and cry if somebody draws a cartoon of Mohammad. Everybody should be open to judgement so people can see for themselves. That nonsense of authoritarian dictation is sad and keeps humanity backwards. Its no wonder the real religious nutheads who cant question a single thing from their traditions are also the places that are shit holes, aka Iran and Saudi Arabia.
im guessing that im in that list of peopple who twist. If you mean me in this case say so, im big boy i can handle it, im not going to cry.
If I meant you I would say you. (I do think you twist things, but I think you do it due to a lack of understanding... and I was not thinking of you in this instance)
Your sounding a lot like many muslims who get all angry and cry if somebody draws a cartoon of Mohammad.
Really? Good example of the way you exaggerate things though.
(sorry, I"m out... not responding anymore.)
Peace,
tammy
TEC:
I am saying that I think it is easy to impugn manipulation on Christ, because we have experience with others using those words as a manipulative tactic.
I guess i am also wondering what you found to be manipulative about his words?
mP:
You have basically addressed part of the problem. That Jesus did a poor job closing all the gap holes and failed to do a thorough job so that his message would be more complete. As i have stated before the fact he failed to address and condemn slavery is unforgivable. Close to half (im being conservative) the Roman world were slaves, surely their pain and anguish deserves a one liner condemning slavery.
I have never doubted or challenged that there are evil people , i agree but Jesus made it too easy, and thats where i blame him for not at the very least condemning them. Just ask yourself how many christians in the American south would fight if they heard jesus said salvery was evil ? Maybe many maybe a few but at least its a start. If Jesus is a moral yardstick for us to ahcive to copy, well he fails miserably here and on other accounts.
Thats my problem with Jesus. If we was a god, he should have seen people would abuse his lack of commentary on slavery and he shoul dhave closed it instead of wasting stories about being a good slave and paying tax. That doesnt sound like very good planning from a perfect king. I would say hes down right incompetant just like everybody else. After all that you realise he isnt special, hes just like everybody else back then.
TEC:
Really? Good example of the way you exaggerate things though.
mP:
Yes because you put Chrsit on a pedastal, and say he is untoucable, without being critical of the questions at hand. Thats wrong, nobody is above the criticism or thought. We have a brain ( maybe God gave us one for this very reason) and we should use it and dont be dumb drones.
You make judging a cult of personality rather than judging them for what they do and what they stand for. You want to love jesus and you cant handle seeing any dirt thrown his way. You wont even listen because it hurts it might be true.
TEC:
(sorry, I"m out... not responding anymore.)
mP:
Hope to chat later.
Jesus was probably one of the Greatest Cult Leaders of all time. He probably also got a lot of his teachings ideas from Roman philosophy and belief system. He could have maybe even been schooled in Roman culture and beliefs.
you realize tec is a female, notice the flower and all of that? you couldn't phrase your words in a little bit more of a palatable way? the same extremism that you condemn, be careful that you do not yourself go down the same path on the polar opposite side of the equation.
CptKirk *** it is mark 6. they are stumbling over jesus (spiritually stumbling), so did he say a prayer for their hearts to be opened? or did he realize that they were obstinate and go to the next place, neither. he used a clear manipulation tactic****
I see your point of view. Some time ago I came across this event on Mark 6 in a Yale University course. Here is a Professor of religious studies take on this issue as seen with the other gospels.
Now let's go back and see how this is reflected in other parts. Look at Jesus' inaugural speech as put forward by Luke in chapter 4 of Luke. Now we're going to spend a lot of time talking about this because you're going to imitate me when you write your exegesis papers. You're going to pay really good attention to all the details of the pericope. You've learned now that pericope is just a fancy Greek word for section, it's the Greek form of section, both of them mean something cut out, and so pericope is what we biblical scholars often call a little piece of text that you do an exegesis of. You want to concentrate on the details of your pericope to try to find out what the message is. So that's what we're going to do with this passage 4:16-30. Now it would help if you also compared this--we're not going to do that so much right now--with Mark 6:1-6 because Luke is getting this scene from Mark. What's going to be interesting to us is, what does Luke change about the scene he gets from Mark? What does he add to the scene he gets from Mark? You could also compare it with Matthew 13:53-58 because that's where Matthew has it. If you were to compare Mark and Matthew, what you would see is Matthew pretty much just follows Mark here. He takes this story about where he finds it in the story of Mark, and he puts it in his story at chronologically about the same place. And he doesn't have Jesus give a long speech, he just has him appear there and that sort of thing.
Now notice what Luke does. Luke takes this text and he does a lot more with it, so we're going to read it and talk about that. "When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, as was his custom." Now if you were a good exegete you would notice, "as was his custom"--you might need to look up in a concordance to see if Luke likes that phrase, because he does.
He stood up and read, and the scroll of the Prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it is written, "The spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." And he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. Then he began to say to them, "Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his mouth. They said, "Is not this Joseph's son?" He said to them, "Doubtless you will quote to me this proverb, 'Doctor, cure yourself!' And you will say, 'Do here also in your hometown the things we have heard you did in Capernaum.'"
That's interesting, because he hasn't really got to Capernaum yet in Luke's Gospel.
And he said, "Truly I tell you, no prophet is accepted in the prophet's hometown. But the truth is, there were many widows in Israel in the time of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up for three years and six months, and there was a severe famine over all the land. Yet Elijah was sent to none of them except to a widow at Zarephath in Sidon. There were also many lepers in Israel in the time of prophet Elisha, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian." When they heard this--
Now notice they started out the scene, they're all happy, he's the hometown boy, he's come home, they are amazed at his teaching, the mood changes. Why does the mood change right there?
When they heard this, all in the synagogue were filled with rage. They got up, drove him out of town, and led him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built so that they might hurl him off the cliff. But he passed through the midst of them and went on his way. He went down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and was teaching them on the Sabbath.
Then another theme that you see here is what happens to Jesus. First Jesus sets himself up as a prophet, right, by quoting--by citing stories about Elijah, who helped the woman--the widow's son, and Elisha, so Elijah and Elisha are important prophets for Luke and Jesus portrays as being like that, so that's why he says:
No prophet is accepted in the prophet's hometown. But the truth is there were many widows in Israel in the time of Elijah when the heaven was shut up for three years and six months, there was severe famine, yet Elijah was not sent to them.
Elijah wasn't sent to the Jews, to any Jewish widows didn't--weren't there Jewish widows who needed a little help too, God? Well yeah, but he wasn't sent to the Jewish widows he was sent to a non-Jewish widow, a woman who lived in Sidon. "There were many lepers in Israel in the time of prophet Elisha." Elisha was the junior prophet to Elijah, Elijah anointed Elisha--not anoint him, he gave him his mantel and so Elisha, after Elijah went up in the fiery chariot, the flying fiery chariot you've heard the story, "swing low swing chariot, coming for to take me home." Elijah doesn't die at the end of his life he's swooped up in a fiery chariot into heaven and, right before that, he gives his mantel to his disciple Elisha and then Elisha is the prophet from there. Elisha also, weren't there many Jewish lepers Elisha? Couldn't you take a nice Jewish leper to heal Elisha? No Jesus says, he wasn't sent to them he was sent to Naaman the Syrian. So I said, when they heard this, all in the synagogue were filled with rage, and I said, why this? What were they so upset with? Now you tell me, why does he say they were filled with rage right then? What, just say it, shout it out. You know. Are there are no Jewish lepers, Elisha? Are there no Jewish widows, Elijah? Why are they mad?
The conclusion suggested is that Jesus's intended ministry, , was mirrored in the preaching of the gospel in Acts, were Israel had first right of refusal, and then it included the gentile world. ....as implied by Jesus when he was rejected in his home town and quoted Elijah and Elisha.
http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-152/lecture-9
Sorry the hyper link in this forum's software is not active on my iPad
slimboyfat: John 15:14, Jesus told his followers they could be his friends if they do what he commands them. You don't get much more blatantly manipulative than that.
John 15:14 - Y OU ? are my friends if ? YOU ? do what I am commanding ? YOU .
Yeppers! Good catch Slimboy!
Nothing like a good healthy dose of conditional approval to get people into the spirit of Christianity.
It's funny how different things look once you're outside of the cult.
