I've been studying for about a year now...

by Meow921 161 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • You Know
    You Know
    Why the baseless attacks upon everybodies character. Yes it is true that apostates can be very immoral at times but no more so than Witnesses.

    I have not attacked anyone personally. My pointing out that the apostates actively promote immorality is hardly baseless. Jesus said you would know a tree by the type of fruit it produces. Apostate Dubs are inarguably corrupt both spiritually and morally. That is hardly irrelevant. Furthermore, you are a liar if you are claiming that Jehovah's Witnesses are in any way comparable to apostaes in that respect.

    The best way for you to win the heart of Meow I think would for you to be honest with yourself and just state the facts.
    That's what I did. It is a fact that the majority of XJW's on this board are mere unclean dogs. I am sorry if you think that's harsh, but the facts speak for themselves.

    Personally I do not think that Meow is interested in the doctrinal issues too much but I think his main concern is findind out exactly what his life as a Witness will be like because he wants to be happy.
    Yeah, right, so that's why you went to such an extent to poison Meow's mind with a barrage of aposto-speak? You just didn't want to take any chances, right? LOL

    Therefore I would then make the suggestion that you simply relay your experience as a Witness so that Meow will hav a better understanding of what to expect. Its up to you.
    I would have been happy to do that had you not made it necessary that I take you to task.

    All I ask is tha before Meow fully involves himself in all of the doctinal matters of the Watchtower that he simply find out what it is. I do not see any harm in that personally.
    I seriously doubt if you have any idea what the truth is regarding doctrinal matters.

    / You Know

  • bjc2012
    bjc2012

    You Know,

    ...Until recently a brother had to have been in the fulltime service for a minimum of 40 years. I don't even come close. Besides, your reasoning is flawed anyway. It is obvious to us that it is Jehovah's purpose to transfer leadership from the anointed to the non-anointed anyway, this in view of the fact that Jehovah's purpose is to harvest his chosen ones to his heavenly kingdom.
    You Know, you have raised an interesting thought. I'd like to expound on this in depth. Let's explore this thought because I think it would be good for persons of interest like "Meow921" to also review such information about the WTS' organization BEFORE JOINING it.

    First of all the question of the younger "anointed" not being used by the organization in high positions.

    How do you explain the writing and service dept. at Brooklyn Bethel being made up of primarily of those of the "other sheep" for the past 50 years when plenty of the younger "anointed" were available to be used? This is the "seat" of government for all the congregations and where congregational policy is formed. The "other sheep" have occupied these primary positions for 50 years or more, in the face of thousands of "anointed" being available for such duties.

    And as for the writing dept. Why are the "anointed" as members of the FD&S, not dominant in this department? Instead, it is the "other sheep" again. And has been so for the last 50 years or so. How do you explain that?

    There is a reason for this, I assure you. A very good reason why these things have happened that exposes the WTS' duplicity and deceit.

    But another question: You Know, how do you explain, the overwhelming bulk of the writing of the all of the various publications over the last 50 years or so, except upon rare occasion, have being done by the "great crowd" and not the "anointed" who are practically non-existent in writing dept?

    Who has really been "feeding" the JW brotherhood over the last 50 years, the "other sheep" or the "anointed"? Which group? (Matt. 24:45-47)

    And how can the obvious pushing of the "other sheep" ahead of the "anointed" as the G.B. has done, be viewed as pleasing to God, if we are to take the FD&S arrangement seriously? (Matt. 24:45-47)

    Well, before you answer, consider this.

    Could the real answer lie in the following:

    You Know, since you have recently become "anointed" within the last 7 years or so, and only baptized within the mid-seventies, I'm sure you are acutely aware that the G.B. would have great reason to doubt your "recent" claim to be of he "anointed". I'm sure you are aware of this.

    I'm also sure you are aware of the fact that the WTS has said in numerous articles over and over again, the claims of all "recent" anointees, since the years of 1931-35, should be questioned! The WTS has pointedly said, without leaving any doubt, that these "comparatively recent" self-professed "anointed" ones should "examine" their motives in claiming to be of the "anointed". All those we claim to be "anointed" since the year of 1931-35, need to take another "look" at their "background" and "feelings" about professing to be one of the "chosen" of God. Isn't that so, You Know?

    The February 1, 1982 Watchtower pgs. 28, 29 under the subheading: "How Can a Person Be Certain?" breaks it down this way, in the most explicit manner by saying,

    "Those sharing in preaching this good news of the Kingdom in modern times are confident that Jehovah God is leading his dedicated servants by means of his visible spirit-begotten organization, the "faithful and discreet slave." (Matthew 24:45-47) Under its direction the heavenly hope was held out, highlighted and stressed until about the year 1935. Then as "light flashed up" to reveal clearly the identify of the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9, the emphasis began to be placed on the earthly hope. (Psalm 97:11) It is reasonable to conclude, therefore, that by that time the full number of the 144,000 would have been nearly completed. Of course, any individuals proving unfaithful would need to be replaced. But, understandably, these would be comparatively few. And by whom would these be replaced? It seems reasonable also to conclude that most likely this heavenly hope would be extended to some who had endured in integrity, who had stuck to their dedication over the years, rather than its being held out to unproved newly dedicated ones. (Compare Luke 22:28-30) ..."

    Do you see the problem, You Know?

    The Governing Body simply does not believe the "claims" of the recent "anointed". They do not see them as "genuine" anointed brothers of Christ. Not even the "lesser ones", as you claim to be. Not even that! So, they really don't believe you, You Know, in your claims to be of the anointed. You are not believed, by your precious Governing Body "anointed" brothers.

    And that means, invariably, that your profession of being of the "anointed" is also not to be taken seriously by all of JWs, worldwide, because of this particular man-made doctrine or teaching of 1931-35, the 1931-35 "tradition" of the anointed. That's a fact too. It's the reality of the situation. The cold facts. (See Mark 7:7, 8.)

    But, let's continue.

    The articles further states to remove any doubt about how they feel about recent "anointees" in the organization,

    "...However, from reports at hand it appears that even some newly dedicated Christians have considered themselves to be 'born again.'"

    Now, here is the big point, the "dagger-in-the-heart" point. The article says:

    "Any who in comparatively recent times dedicated themselves and were baptized and who consider themselves to be "born again" would do well to reflect seriously on the following questions:

    1) What reasons have you for feeling that Jehovah God has planted this hope in you?

    2) Could it be that your emotional feeling is a holdover from the mistaken belief you previously held while in Babylon the Great that heaven is the destiny of all good people?

    3) Or could it be that you feel this way because you had great inward disturbances, that you at first fought against the idea but it gradually won out?

    4) But did it win out because you wanted it that way, perhaps even unconsciously?

    Such struggles do not of themselves prove that you were "born again".

    5) Or do you feel that you have been chosen by God to be one of the 144,000 anointed ones because of your keen appreciation of spiritual things, because of your fondness for deep spiritual truths?

    Then note that ever so many who do not profess to be "born again" are "spiritual men" in the fullest sense of the word. (1 Corinthians 2:14, 15) And there is no question about the spiritual strength of those men and women of faith listed in Hebrews chapter 11. None of those were "born again." All of them looked forward to "a better resurrection [to life under God's kingdom] right here on this earth. -- Hebrews 11:35

    6) Or might it be that you feel the way you do because of your displaying more zeal than some of your fellow Christians?

    But that of itself could not be the determining factor, for the apostle Paul time and again found it necessary to counsel anointed Christians in regard to taking their spiritual obligations seriously. (1 Corinthians 11:20-22); Galatians 4:9-11)

    7) Or could it be that your profession to be of the anointed is due to a lack of modesty?

    There are some who quite recently have professed to be of the anointed but who, instead of building unity in the congregation, have felt they must have their own Bible study group. To the contrary, mature "born again" Christians remain close to the local congregation even though it is largely comprised of the "other sheep," (John 10:16) However, a person's being "born again" is a personal matter between God and each Christian. No one should judge another on this question. -- Romans 14:10"

    [my thought: I think the WTS just did, that is "judge" on the matter. And I believe you, "You Know" will concur with me on that opinion too. ]

    The article continues:

    "From all the foregoing what do we conclude [on this matter of recent JWs being anointed]? That Jehovah God is just and righteous, wise and loving. He has the right to assign his intelligent creatures to their respective roles -- some to serve his purpose in the heavens, others to do so here upon earth. It is not as though the heavenly prize is something to be gained by personal choice and effort, or to be coveted selfishly. It is unique and no human creature may presume upon it. It is indeed a marvelous undeserved kindness that Jehovah God bestows on a few of his creatures, in the furtherance of his wise, just and loving purposes, but not due to any special merit on their own part. Being "born again" is limited to these. (Romans 3:23, 24; 11:33-36) ... No one should be so presumptuous as to say to Jehovah, "What have you been doing?"

    End of quote from article.

    You Know, how would you like to sit thru this particular WTS study with your loving brothers "throwing tomatoes" all thru-out the meeting at you, the recent "anointee" of God. And for months after this, "pot-shots" being taken at you. How friendly would the congregation be to you, while you were trying to maintain your personal claim to be of the "anointed", and the G.B. and FD&S dispensing this type of information against you, and your personal claim to be of the "anointed"? Perhaps, some on this board have had that "experience". It would not be pleasant, I assure you.

    But my main point in bringing up this information is this: After reading the above, why do you think the G.B. does not use nor promote, as they say, "any who in comparatively recent times" have dedicated themselves to Jehovah God and have "claimed" or "professed" the heavenly hope, to ultra high positions of authority within this organization?

    They listed 7 reasons. They didn't leave us in the dark about this whole issue.

    All of the reasons they gave are totally unscriptural, when examined. Again, I know you concur. You'd have to, to maintain your claim to being of the anointed. And yet, when they finish their listing of all of their reasons why people like you can't possibly be of the "anointed", they conclude by saying, "well...we can't judge". What hypocrites!

    But lets take another example. This is not the only time, they've emphasized their personal preference in this matter, ahead of God's Will. Nor the first time, they have put their man-made "tradition" ahead of God's Word. (Mark 7:7, 8)

    Again, the February 15th 1985 Watchtower pg. 21 par. 18, 19 comments directly on this very matter. Under the subheading called: "THE NEED FOR SELF-EXAMINATION", the publication said,

    "The modern history of Jehovah's Witnesses shows that since 1931 more attention started to be given to the "other sheep" through the Kingdom message...What does this new emphasis indicate? Surely that the gathering of the "little flock" was drawing to a close and the time had come for Jesus, through the administration of the "the faithful and discreet slave," to turn his attention to gathering the "other sheep."

    The article continues:

    "With the foregoing in mind, we say to ALL THOSE WHO HAVE RECENTLY become associated with Jehovah's people and who may have made some claim to being one of the anointed class: EXAMINE CAREFULLY your relationship with Jehovah. ASK YOURSELF, is the heavenly hope that I profess to have somehow

    (1) a holdover from a previously held church teaching that all church members go to heaven?

    (2) Is my hope in any way connected with some selfish desire or emotional feelings."

    In other words, are you seeking "selfish" prominence of some kind? Are you emotionally disturbed? Unbalanced?

    Now after reading that, do you think the G.B. and WTS headquarters staff believes the more recent "anointees", to truly be spirit-begotten by God? Or, just poor, misguided individuals who have some "emotional" problem of some kind?

    Does the Governing Body feel the more recent "anointees" are ones truly worthy of heavy spiritual responsibility and privilege within the organization of JWs, like being a part of Writing or Service Departments?

    I don't think so.

    bjc

  • Will Power
    Will Power
    The paradox that befuddles apostates is that none of the Watchtower's interpretive shortcomings in anyway disqualifies them from serving Jehovah's purpose. Being in the new covenant doesn't make Jehovah's anointed ones error free.

    Just to clarify 1 point, I am not befuddled nor an apostate and when I question the integrity of the Watchtower it has nothing to do with their interpretive shortcomings. This you make sound like it's a cute quirk, like snoring, or failing to put the seat down.

    Even tho they encouraged people to put off marriage, children, education, and praised those "mature christians" who sold off their homes, possessions to spend the last few months in full time service, they say the R&F got over enthusiastic. See that is a quirky shortcoming. Same with the mormans who have to keep their shelter stocked with minimum 3 month supply of every thing needed to survive the big A. Mandatory but not really 10% tithe, etc. quirky right?

    What I object to is the deliberate deception when it comes to covering their tracks. Print one thing, then after it turns out wrong they reprint, changing words to make the new copy seem like they were right all along, never admitting the changes or taking responsibility. And using the R&F's money to do it. This is lying. Quick Example: Rutherford's "Light" book(s).

    Whenever the WT is caught in deception, or corruption of scripture, Rev 22:12, 1 thes 4:16 for example, the big Satan vs Us comes into play. We are not at fault, as if satan changes the negs & plates while no one is looking. You say: We are not error free, - but what you seem to mean is - our prophecies even tho do not come true are what we believed to be true at the time and Jehovah is using us so if that is what He wanted us to know at that time then that is what we knew. We are not at fault. Cop Out.

    The deliberate manipulation of the printed word, changing history, that is a crime, not sure of the legal term but certainly could not be something God, the Absolute, the I AM, would attach His "Name" to.
    Even those who do not believe in a God find this offensive.

    Will, you don't have a clue what is true.
    One example:
    All I know is what I see with my own eyes, 2 hard cover books, same title, same color cover, all pages in tact, supposedly exactly the same, published by the WatchTower, one book says one thing, the other the same except for a few "key" words changed. No notation, no warning. Both are considered the truth? Is it only you they are trying to kid? Cause it doesn't fool me. What level of maturity does one need to accept this as truth.

    Being in the new covenant doesn't make Jehovah's anointed ones error free
    Maybe not but it should come with a degree of honesty & integrity. (Not that I agree that only the annointed are in the new covenant) And if the annointed were responsible for what is printed that would be a totaly different story, but we both know they are not.

    Well, tomorrow is another day. Looking forward to your separate thread on Rev 22:12. Can you also include 1 Thes 4:16? maybe we could compare the two.

  • jerome
    jerome

    This is obviously going nowhere so I am ending my role in the discussion. I whish you a nice night YK.

    I have to leave the board for a while as I have been planning to do for a sometime now because I have exams to study for and I cant recall seeing Cult mentality and refuting Jehovahs Witnesses on my syllabus.

    I personally dont think that you are a bad person but I do think that you are being decived, and have been decieved all your life as a Witness. I applaud your standing out here in defending what you see as the truth and making your point known to Meow. BTW sorry for calling you a he if you ar a she or vise versa. But moving on I must tell you that:

    I have heard the Gospel of the Jehovahs Witnesses and I do not believe that it is the Gospel of the Bible. Therefore I have rejected it.
    I have every right to call your organisation a false prophet because pratically nothing it predicts comes true. I do not believe that God Alimighty could have shuch a corrupt and decietful organisation shuch as the Watchtoweror have anything to do with its Governing. I do not believe that it is directed by God in the least. Many Churches have made mistakes in the past and have cost the lives of many innocent but I cannot believe that God Alimighty would give the authority that the Watchtower has claimed when the members of their leadership have become so corrupt and that this very aspect of their character does not seem to likely to change in the forceable future.

    You seem to ba a very intelegent person and I am sorry to say that I think that your potential has been wasted in this life. You probally could have made a difference somewhere in your community or the society in general other than selling magazines. I can sense that you are fighting desperately to hang on to life as you know it because you think that your salvation is dependant upon following the orders of those 12 in New York. I think that you have heard this before but I will tell you a gain, there is life outside the Watchtower society, people are happy in other walks of life, there is hope for you.

    I must share something though, it is because of religions like yours that I now have vested intrest in reading the bible and verifying if what I believe in has a solid foundation or not because if it dosent I will have to abandon Christianity. I will not make myself a hypocrite by pointing out the fact that you are a member of a false religion while I am doing the same myself. If the bible does not stand up to scrunity then I will have to abandon my faith in it. I truly believe now that all you need is for someone to show you some act of kindness otside of your organisation inorder for you to see the truth behind the loving nature of humanity. The World is not all an evil place. That way the next time you visit a Kingdom Hall and they speak to you of the evil world and the hope to see the wholesale destruction of this wicked system of things you will realize that the person that showed you that one act of kindness that truly touched your heart, will also be destroyed at Armageddon, along with all the other vile and disgusting persons of this world according to your theology. Then you will see that it is un Christian to wish for everyone who does not share beliefs to die. I wish you well in sharing your message of salvation so that you may try to save as many of you worldy friends as possible. Because that should be your main goal to save as many souls for Jesus Christ out of love.
    I wish you well in your quest because trying to get you to listen to anything anybody on this board says about your religion is pointless unless you open your mind to the suggestion that you do not have it all. Until then you will continue to be deceived in your reasoning and weak in your actions. Because you already know that they have lied to you for your entire life as a Witneses and that it is impossible to say that many of their actions were directed by God. All that remains now is the last straw, then you will take action and reclaim your life.

    I wish you all a good night.

    jerome.

    The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Just to add to bj's thought if I may

    YouKnow:
    The WT has no right to read your heart and tell you what sort of relationship you may have with your God. They do not hold the keys, they will not be your judge.

    You should ease up on this apostate paranoia you have. That is a classic cult trait and I don't think you want to give off that air, but alas the leopard has spots.

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    YOUdon'tKNOW isn't going to ease up on anything untill threads like this get less than, at present, 124 replies and 1925 views.

    Youknow is not the problem---it's all the trollfeeders he attracts. It seems some types can't get enough of him.

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    What a great post Jerome. I agree with everything you just said.

    Same thing happened to me regarding the study of "truth" and my personal beliefs. Whatever the outcome (the journey never really ends does it) I know where I do NOT have to look. Not even a peek.

    Good luck with your exams. I too have to leave for a while, so I'll not know how this ends up.

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    DungB

    Troll feeder. Not sure of the term. Am I guilty?
    I'm practicing my patience, endurance, topic target, and anti-dizzy puke skills.

    Does YK want people to feel sorry for him?

  • You Know
    You Know

    bjc2012

    You Know, you have raised an interesting thought. I'd like to expound on this in depth. Let's explore this thought because I think it would be good for persons of interest like "Meow921" to also review such information about the WTS' organization BEFORE JOINING it.

    Okay.

    How do you explain the writing and service dept. at Brooklyn Bethel being made up of primarily of those of the "other sheep" for the past 50 years when plenty of the younger "anointed" were available to be used?
    Probably the main reason is that the younger anointed aren't qualified. Just because a person is anointed doesn't mean they are necessarily gifted with writing ability or are some scholar. The fact of the matter is that there are many more qualified men who are not anointed and they work under the oversight of the Governing Body.

    But another question: You Know, how do you explain, the overwhelming bulk of the writing of the all of the various publications over the last 50 years or so, except upon rare occasion, have being done by the "great crowd" and not the "anointed" who are practically non-existent in writing dept?
    The Writing Committee is made up entirely of anointed men. They give assignments to those in the writing department, in essence commissioning them. It is similar to the way the local congregations operate under the auspices of the GB.

    There is a reason for this, I assure you. A very good reason why these things have happened that exposes the WTS' duplicity and deceit.
    There is no sinister plan to exclude the younger anointed. As I pointed out: It suits Jehovah's purpose to pass on the oversight of the organization to those who are going to be around after Armageddon.

    The Governing Body simply does not believe the "claims" of the recent "anointed". They do not see them as "genuine" anointed brothers of Christ. Not even the "lesser ones", as you claim to be. Not even that! So, they really don't believe you, You Know, in your claims to be of the anointed. You are not believed, by your precious Governing Body "anointed" brothers.
    Like I said before, It doesn't matter. Interestingly, though, in the first century there was a bit of a schizm among the anointed Christians. Paul chided some of the Corinthians asking them if they had already begun ruling as kings? The reason he asked that question is because they were not really suffering persecution like others. Paul went on to say that the apostles were put on exhibition as men appointed to death and that while the Corinthians were in honor, the apostles were in dishonor. And while the Corinthians appeared to be discreet in Christ, the apostles were made out to be fools. So, today the same scenario is being played out only in reverse. The older anointed ones are honored by the brothers and appear to be discreet in Christ, but the younger ones are viewed as fools and frauds. Jehovah is pleased to allow these tests to go on in the body of Christ because it ultimately proves Satan a liar and honors Jehovah. I am pleased to suffer whatever indignity Jehovah's will allows.

    You Know, how would you like to sit thru this particular WTS study with your loving brothers "throwing tomatoes" all thru-out the meeting at you, the recent "anointee" of God. And for months after this, "pot-shots" being taken at you.
    Well, I've lived it. And it's an ongoing thing. It is part of bearing the reproach of Christ. Personally, I find great comfort in the experiences of men like Moses, Joseph, and David. Each of those men had special assignments from God. But in each case they were not initially accepted by their brothers and were even persecuted by their own people because of God's blessing upon them. David in particular, after he was anoited to become the king of Israel, and he slew Goliath, was forced by an insanely jealous king Saul into becoming a fugitive. So, yeah, I live that stuff.

    But my main point in bringing up this information is this: After reading the above, why do you think the G.B. does not use nor promote, as they say, "any who in comparatively recent times" have dedicated themselves to Jehovah God and have "claimed" or "professed" the heavenly hope, to ultra high positions of authority within this organization?
    Again, it doesn't matter. If the GB are truly anointed themselves, and I certainly, for one, believe that they are, then that means that what they do is only by Jehovah's permission. And, if it's God's will to allow his younger children to be mistreated and despised by their older brothers because it suits his purpose---then so be it. I am determined not to allow Satan to incite me to resentment against those who are presently ruling as kings without us. At some point during the judgment I am confident that Isaih 66:5 will come into play. It says: "Hear the word of Jehovah, you men who are trembling at his word: "Your brothers that are hating you, that are excluding you by reason of my name, said, 'May Jehovah be glorified!' He must also appear with rejoicing on your part, and they are the ones that will be put to shame."/ You Know
  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    You Know,

    So's not to railroad this thread nor to confuse Miaow any more than we have to, I've responded to your last inanity in a separate thread.

    Oh what a tangled web you weave......

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    "If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

    - Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress

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