I've been studying for about a year now...

by Meow921 161 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

bjc2012

You Know,
Having an appointed position neither validates or invalidates a person's anointing. In the 1st century most of the anointed Christians were not elders or even ministerial servants. Today a large portion of the remaining anointed are women who hold no official positon. But, from Jehovah's standpoint each one is a valuable member and serves where he deems appropriate. That's pretty basic Bible stuff. Besides, I have no ambitions in that regard. I have served as an elder in the past and have had many privileges in that regard.
This does not explain why your leadership prefers to use non-anointed other sheep in the Writing Department, Service Department, etc., rather than qualified anointed individuals. According to your teachings, there was only one class of individuals in the congregations in the first century, anointed ones. They would not have faced such a problem as the two-class organization does today. You have not explained why those who are ‘taught by spirit’ are being given directions by those who have not been taught directly by holy spirit and who are not a part of those individuals who have been given the commission to ‘feed the domestics’ although no one seems to know who these domestics are.
I said though that I don't teach my own views among the brothers. That's understood by all the brothers to be wrong. But, it is not like you imagine.
Meaning that the rank and file is not worthy to see both sides of the issues as they haven’t got the smarts to make a rational decision when it comes to their future lives. Maybe you don’t believe that everyone must carry his own load. But, of course, he can’t if his load is taken away from him. The only thing that the GB is doing is prolonging the inevitable. The R&F will eventually have to know all the facts and make their own decision. Neither the WTS nor anyone else can guarantee everlasting life for anyone not even for them selves. Then again maybe your views are just opinions and are not backed up by biblical facts so are not worthy to be shared with anyone else.
Perhaps you were disfellowshipped because you started teaching your own thing, I don't know. More than likely you started expousing Ray Franz's teaching among the brothers. Naturally they are going to remove someone that does that.
I was not disfellowshipped; I left because I refused to teach lies in Jehovah’s name. I have never and still do not espouse Ray Franz’s teachings. I’m not even sure that I know what they are as I have not read his books.
I don't claim to be qualified to serve on the GB. I would never presume that I should. I am content to serve as a lesser one and let the brothers do their thing and I do mine.
I didn’t intimate that you were seeking a position of power. Serve as a lesser one? That is the qualification for everyone who wishes to please Jehovah. What qualifications would you need other than what you already claim to have since you say that you have already sent them information that they acted upon? That would mean that Jehovah is already revealing biblical understanding to you. Therefore you are already qualified for a leadership role. But you are being overlooked for some reason.
I doesn't matter what they think. Jehovah knows those who belong to him, and we certainly know as well.
Ah, so you do have an issue with the Society on this.
When the time comes for the revealing of the sons of God then everyone in th organization will know who is and who isn't anointed.

So you admit that not everyone who claims to be anointed really is such. If ones salvation depends on listening to and following the faithful slave, he had most certainly better know NOW, not later, who is and who is not anointed. What good will it do to find this out after the crap hits the fan. So far, there is not much to go on.
Until then the Scritpure says that we are "concealed in Christ.”
Oh yeah, ‘concealed in Christ’ yet teaching lies!
bjc
seven006

Meow,
What a fun thread you have started, I hope you are not too overwhelmed. This is a lot to deal with in a short period of time. What ever you do just realize that it is your decision and your life. Once you become a baptized JW that will change but you may need to find that out yourself.
I would just like to add that you will not see many of the things that some of those who have posted to you about the negativity in the JW religion. At least, not for a while. Bible studies like yourself are handled with kid gloves at first and are not given the full treatment of the JW control at first. Later when you are no longer special or in a "virgin" state of indoctrination you will be treated like the average rank and file JW and you will begin to see what many have tried to tell you.
Some times, some people, just need to experience things for themselves before they completely understand what others have tried to explain. That's life.
As far as Robert goes just look at his shining example of "do as I say, not as I do." The JW governing body thinks he is a bigger nut than we do. He's like the annoying little fly that buzzes by your head when your trying to eat lunch. Everyone tries to swat him away but he keeps coming back. Robert is just a lonely old man who has no one to talk to so he comes here and tries to show everyone how many scriptures he can quote. He helps more decide to leave the religion than he has ever persuaded to stay. I think he's a little bit on the Alzheimer side and thinks he's actually god, at least he's his own god. Just watch what you say to him, he likes young girls emailing him.
Take care,
Dave
Ephanyminitas

Take notice though that no apostate was able to refute what I said about them being immoral. That's because they can't. -- "You Know"
I'm not yet one, but I consider myself to be an apostate. Yet I am a very moral person. I didn't let my morals slide just because I'm leaving the organization. Plus, everything depends on your point of view. Seeing an R-rated movie might be immoral to you, but it's not to me. It's all perspective. I must say that JWs are very judgmental about things like this.
You Know

BJC2010
This does not explain why your leadership prefers to use non-anointed other sheep in the Writing Department, Service Department, etc., rather than qualified anointed individuals.
I don't claim to be qualified. I don't know if there are too many anointed ones around that are. Until recently a brother had to have been in the fulltime service for a minimum of 40 years. I don't even come close. Besides, your reasoning is flawed anyway. It is obvious to us that it is Jehovah's purpose to transfer leadership from the anointed to the non-anointed anyway, this in view of the fact that Jehovah's purpose is to harvest his chosen ones to his heavenly kingdom. It is reasonable, that just as Elijah prepared his successor Elisha, draping his mantle over his shoulders thereby officially imparting to him his office before his symbolic heavenly departure, that a similar thing would occur now.
They would not have faced such a problem as the two-class organization does today. You have not explained why those who are ‘taught by spirit’ are being given directions by those who have not been taught directly by holy spirit and who are not a part of those individuals who have been given the commission to ‘feed the domestics’ although no one seems to know who these domestics are.
There's no problem. Eventually there will be no anointed ones left remaining on the earth. Besides, the GB still oversee the teaching.
Meaning that the rank and file is not worthy to see both sides of the issues as they haven’t got the smarts to make a rational decision when it comes to their future lives. Maybe you don’t believe that everyone must carry his own load.
The thing that makes Jehovah's sheep distinctive in the first place is that they are meek and humble and they listen and obey. That's what sets the demons and their dupes into teeth-gnashings fits. LOL Jesus for the most part protects his sheep from the controversy that is swirling around his organization. It is enough that a representative number of us present ourselves on the stage as a theatrical spectacle in order to face some of the controversy.
The R&F will eventually have to know all the facts and make their own decision. Neither the WTS nor anyone else can guarantee everlasting life for anyone not even for them selves. Then again maybe your views are just opinions and are not backed up by biblical facts so are not worthy to be shared with anyone else.
Jehovah's judgments will be revealed in due time. And when they are, at some point, Jehovah's Witnesses will have to stand alone without the assitance of the Watchtower. That will satisfy Satan's acusations that Jehovah has put a protective hedge around us by means of the Watchtower and will allow each individual to demonstrate their faith and loyalty more directly to Jehovah rather then to an organization. The agency of the Watchtower has prepared a people to stand the test, it is just a matter of time before this system blows and we get down to it.
That would mean that Jehovah is already revealing biblical understanding to you. Therefore you are already qualified for a leadership role. But you are being overlooked for some reason
There is a point when Jehovah's chosen ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. That's when things will get interesting. Right now is mere child's play. / You Know
Axelspeed

Meow
Can't really add anything. But the crux of the matter was well stated by bj:
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"Question par. #8:
What does attaining "oneness" in the faith and accurate knowledge require?
Paragraph #8:
"First, since "oneness" is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in UNITY and FULL HARMONY with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. HE DOES NOT ADVOCATE OR INSIST ON PERSONAL OPINIONS OR HARBOR PRIVATE IDEAS WHEN IT COMES TO BIBLE UNDERSTANDING. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, AND "THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE."
Do you understand what these above words mean?
You must not "HARBOR PRIVATE IDEAS"
explicitly shows this goes deep. Deep within a person's conscience and personal being. This shows, he may not even tell ANYONE about this. Because he is "harboring private ideas", to himself! When someone "harbors" something, he is keeping it to himself. It is a very private thought, or idea. He can only "HARBOR" something, within himself. Within his person. Is this not true?
So, you cannot even "harbor" thoughts, personal thoughts that DISAGREE with the WTS' teachings. That's what the above statement is saying. You must not think, nor "harbor" any thoughts against the WTS' teachings! You cannot even hold within yourself, any "private ideas" or "personal opinions" on biblical matters. That's if they are different from "WATCHTOWER UNDERSTANDING". That's apostasy,..."
______________________________________________________________________
In other words, although you have been encouraged to examine and investigate now, check that at the door once in.
Most could take a lot of things, including errors as a result of good intentions. But to give up to right to think?....If you don't have that what do you have?
Suppose the organization you are affiliated with now (if you are) made this same request...theoretically (sp?) you would not be able to do the studying you now are without being considered a heretic and apostate, right?
As for YouKnow and whatever arguments he is now making.. Bottom Line: He is in DIRECT VIOLATION of WT policy by asserting and HARBORING his own OPINION that it is ok to even be here,...he knows it,...and so would you.
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seven006 stated:
Some times, some people, just need to experience things for themselves before they completely understand what others have tried to explain. That's life.
____________________________________________________________________
very true.
just my 2
Will Power

Oh good, you're back
You Know
Jesus for the most part protects his sheep from the controversy that is swirling around his organization
Do you know what the controvery is that swirls around? It is 100% self-inflicted and definitly in the "plural sense". What goes around comes around.
The society dishes it out but cannot take even a fraction of their own medicine. They have tricked and hurt too many people. The scales are being balanced.
If you spend a 100 yrs. printing lies, half-truths, & chafe, even if it is among fanciful wheat-like sensible sayings, sooner or later, your own words will haunt. It is up to "mature" christians to point out the quicksand and warn the brothers. Wouldn't you agree it is a duty to warn of danger?
From the Awake article on "propaganda" it describes it's own tactics to a T:
As we have seen, there are many today who would like to 'delude us with persuasive arguments.' (Colossians 2:4) Therefore, when we are presented with persuasive arguments, we should ask questions.
First, examine whether there is bias. Also, if possible, try to check the track record of those speaking. Are they known to speak the truth? If you sense some appeal to emotions, ask yourself, 'When viewed dispassionately, what are the merits of the message?'
This also from the Awake:
Actually, incidents of book burning-a universal symbol of the suppression of freedom of thought and speech-have occurred in many countries and in many centuries. Often, it has been instigated by religious leaders who feared the effect that freedom of thought would have on the common man.
No wonder that many today assume that the Bible mandates rigid restrictions against open intellectual inquiry. But does it really? Does the Bible encourage restraints on freedom of thought?
The above from the same Magazine that shows what a good JW would do with certain critical but true literature by tossing it into the garbage without even a glance and lying about its contents being Apostate when there isn't one word against God. Only constructive critisim of a printing company/legal entity. "Emotions aside" does the ability for a JW to use discernment exist? "Emotions aside" I think maybe they could use their own mind if allowed to remove the blanket of fear the WT covers them with.
Is this the protection by Jesus you speak of? A blanket of fear, no confidence of their own to fall back on? Only printed tracts, POs, COs, GBs, PRs, ATTYs, YouKnows.
You Know: Did you get a chance to review the last post relating to your 6 word answer on Rev. 22:12? Your answer has created more questions. I hate to be a pain, but I am really quite interested on how this "coming" thing all fits.
Thanks.
termite 35

Robert, why don't you send a copy of this post to your cong; just to show our new friend how balanced and open the body of elders is?
You Know

Do you know what the controvery is that swirls around? It is 100% self-inflicted and definitly in the "plural sense". What goes around comes around.
LOL. The controversy is between Jehovah and Satan. What is going on today is not at all diferent than what Christ and the apostles wnet through. In the Christian era Jesus in fact takes credit for igniting the fires of controversy. He said something to the effect that 'I came to start a fire and what more could I wish but that it is already lit?'
If you spend a 100 yrs. printing lies, half-truths, & chafe, even if it is among fanciful wheat-like sensible sayings, sooner or later, your own words will haunt. It is up to "mature" christians to point out the quicksand and warn the brothers. Wouldn't you agree it is a duty to warn of danger?
The paradox that befuddles apostates is that none of the Watchtower's interpretive shortcomings in anyway disqualifies them from serving Jehovah's purpose. Being in the new covenant doesn't make Jehovah's anointed ones error free. It only gives Jehovah a basis for forgivness. In some sense our mis-steps serve as an inducment for apostates to reveal themselves. And Jehovah has a purpose for everything, the Bible says he even has a use for the wicked ones in the evil day, just like Judas served a special role in the outworking of Jehovah's purpose. So, there are reasons why things are the way they are.
The above from the same Magazine that shows what a good JW would do with certain critical but true literature by tossing it into the garbage without even a glance and lying about its contents being Apostate when there isn't one word against God.
That must really burn you guys up I bet. LOL Will, you don't have a clue what is true.
You Know: Did you get a chance to review the last post relating to your 6 word answer on Rev. 22:12? Your answer has created more questions. I hate to be a pain, but I am really quite interested on how this "coming" thing all fits.
Let's let this thread run its course and I will post another seperate topic and comment on it if you want. / You Know
You Know

Robert, why don't you send a copy of this post to your cong; just to show our new friend how balanced and open the body of elders is?
A few months back I printed out a couple of posts and showed them to my CO. Does that count? / You Know
jerome

You Know
Why the baseless attacks upon everybodies character. Yes it is true that apostates can be very immoral at times but no more so than Witnesses. Peoples past imorality has no relevance to this discussion unless you would conseder yourself to be blameless. Remember the sign of a trure Christian is not acts good works but showing his love.
The best way for you to win the heart of Meow I think would for you to be honest with yourself and just state the facts. Personally I do not think that Meow is interested in the doctrinal issues too much but I think his main concern is findind out exactly what his life as a Witness will be like because he wants to be happy. There is nothing wrong with that. Therefore I would then make the suggestion that you simply relay your experience as a Witness so that Meow will hav a better understanding of what to expect. Its up to you.
On another note its nice to see that you have actually taken the time to discuss some basic principles of mindcontroll that I have apparently been using on Meow. You see the thing about mindcontroll is that the victim is usually unaware that it is being utilized so he therefore has little conscious say in the decisions that he makes. All I ask is tha before Meow fully involves himself in all of the doctinal matters of the Watchtower that he simply find out what it is. I do not see any harm in that personally.
I will also provide a link about debate tacktics whicj includes common logical fallacies used move a debate in the deseriable direction regardless of the facts presented. Especially the use of ad homenin (sp?).
http://datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm <-- Comon errors of logic.
Any persson who visits this link will quickly be able to put any illogical argument to rest.
jerome
The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.

I've been studying for about a year now...

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