BibleExaminer's comments are right on the money!!! As for You Know, well... if he's as strong a JW as he claims to be, he really wouldn't even be here on this site. It wouldn't be worth his time (unless he's counting it as field service!): )
I've been studying for about a year now...
by Meow921 161 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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out4good3
You Know says
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[Quote]Your continuing to lurk among us only pretending to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses is not an admirable thing to do and gives evidence that you are in reality a very weak-minded and cowardly individual who would rather live a lie than stand up for his convictions. Why should anyone give any credence to the jaundiced opinions of such spineless individuals?---------------------------------------------------------------------
Now if this isn't a case of the pot trying to call the keetle black, I don't know what is? JW's lurk around the weak minded counting time, feigning a caring attitude till you're baptised and sucked in.
Take some of the advice on this board about looking into the WTBTS from resources outside of what those seemingly innocent and much older sisters or brothers are giving you. Print out, show, and question them about some of the things you've found NOW, and guage their reaction. With all their talk about what they have being the truth, instead of offering answers they'll quickly move to the scare tactics of it being apostate literature or that it's inspired by demons or people who only want to bring you down or seperate you from Jehovah's "fine arrangement". Don't fall for this. Stick to the issues you brought out and remind them that if what they have is the "real truth", one should not be afraid of other literature and that it should be able to withstand some scrutiny. Ask them to explain the doctrinal changes on blood and the generational change. Ask them to explain their involvement in the UN. Most of their foot soldiers are unaware that this ever transpired and you can believe that the WT wants to keep it that way. Their involvement in the UN is a shining example of hipocrisy at it's finest.
Once you're baptised and have been in the WT for a number of years, there is no easy way out should you start having doubts and questions about them. Ask those you are studying with about their policies on disassociating, disfellowshipping, being labeled an apostate or shunning, and you'll see why. When you go to your next meeting take a hard look at the people around you. There's a reason that most of them are some 30 or 40 years older than you. They've spent a lifetime "waiting on Jehovah", another line they're sure to hook you with. Everything and everyone they know is connected to the organization in some way, so even if some are having doubts, they are, to use You Know's terms, living a lie, because they have been conditioned through long exposure to WT doctrines to just live with it and keep their mouth shut. Those who question too much are kicked to the curb, cut off from the support system they've come to depend on.
For some, being a JW is a good thing. It provides a rigid structure they feel they need in their life. All of life's decisions condensed into 5 meetings a week, two bi-monthly publications, all provided by a few old men in Brooklyn far removed from what the average person has to go through every day. If that's what you're looking for then you're sure to fit right in, just look at and evaluate all the information available independantly, and not just blindly follow them with you "Eyes Wide Shut".
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Fire Dragon
Hey Meow,
One sign of a cult is that they try to keep you from researching thru outside sources...they label them as dangerous...just look at what You Know said "They "utter swelling expressions of no profit" because they only pretend to have some special insight into the truth and they desperately want to plant a seed of doubt in your mind in order to wreck your spirituality." Right there is the proof that cult influence in ground into this one.Hey You Know,
Thanks for backing us up! By the way troll, do the elders in your congregation know you are a member of an "apostate" forum? I bet they'd be interested to find out."...if there is a hell, I'll see you there." (NIN - Downward Spiral)
I'll be the one providing the fire. -
RedhorseWoman
Meow921, right now you are in the enviable position of "potential" JW, and you are seeing only the good things.
Once you are baptized, the pressure starts....subtle at first, but ever increasing. Once you are baptized, you will be expected to attend all the meetings, as well as all of the other "goodies" a "mature Christian" is required to do.
Try researching other publications, as has been suggested. Try bringing out a copy of Crisis of Conscience at one of your studies, and carefully watch the reaction you get. Studying anything other than the literature published by the WTBTS is considered a VERY dangerous thing. Consider that to be a red flag.....a very large red flag.
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You Know
Print out, show, and question them about some of the things you've found NOW, and guage their reaction.
Better yet, discuss it with someone who is familiar with the issues and teachings of apostates. I have been debating issues related to my faith for years and I can tell you for a fact that there is nothing the apostates have that can stand up to the truth.
With all their talk about what they have being the truth, instead of offering answers they'll quickly move to the scare tactics of it being apostate literature or that it's inspired by demons or people who only want to bring you down or seperate you from Jehovah's "fine arrangement".
Which, of course, happens to be true.Stick to the issues you brought out and remind them that if what they have is the "real truth", one should not be afraid of other literature and that it should be able to withstand some scrutiny.
That is typical apostate reasoning and it goes directly counter to the Bible's counsel, such as Paul's words at 1 Timothy 6:3-5, which reads: " If any man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words. From these things spring envy, strife, abusive speeches, wicked suspicions, violent disputes about trifles on the part of men corrupted in mind and despoiled of the truth." Apostates have absolutely nothing of value to offer you. They only want to corrupt you. Like I told you, many of the XJWs on this board are extremely immoral and corrupt but they are so puffed up with arrogance that they also try to pass themselves off as experts on matters of spiritual truth.Ask those you are studying with about their policies on disassociating, disfellowshipping, being labeled an apostate or shunning, and you'll see why.
They will be more than happy to show you what the Scripture say in that regard. We have nothing to hide in that respect.There's a reason that most of them are some 30 or 40 years older than you. They've spent a lifetime "waiting on Jehovah",
That's nothing to be ashamed of.Those who question too much are kicked to the curb, cut off from the support system they've come to depend on.
The responsibility of Christian elders is to protect Jehovah's people from predatory individuals who are intent on sowing seeds of doubt among others. But, no one who has sincere doubts is disfellowshipped. We are always willing to work with friends who may have developed doubts. But the Scriptures are pretty clear about how to handle those who are intent on stumbling others. No organization is obligated to put up with individulas who foment discord and suspicion among others. The curbside is where they belong. / You Know -
jerome
YouKnow
Havent you learned anything? People are trying to help. BTW I dont personally think that your presence here is very theocratic but it is insightfull. People left the organisation because they werent very happy. If you are so satisfied with your life as a Jehovah Witness why dont you share your experience and give the guy something to look foward to in his life as a Witnesses then mabe he wouldent care what the apostates say because he would be happy. People join a religion for love, happiness and security not out of fear. Shurley you should be able to relate all the happy experiences you have incountered recently to this newbie then mebe he wouldent need to ask any questions. If you were to relay your story as a witneses mabe he would see how truly great is to be a Witness!
On another note.
I was once a study with the Witneses but not for very long and I never went to any meetings. People around me kept telling me that the Jehovahs Witnesses were a cult. Well its a nasty word but if you look for the real meaning of it you will quickly find out why it has a higly negative stigma attached to it. As posters above have told you they are probally alot of things that the Witnesses do not tell you. It is theses thing that they neglect to mention that make all the difference.
They are many regretable and horrible mistakes that have been made in the past by Religions due to the misuse of their leaders authority. But the the question you should ask your self is do they deserve the right to maintain the authority that they have assumed. If an organisation is known to be dangerous should its power be allowed to be abused? This statement applies to all religions Catholohis, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu you name it.
The thing that personally upsets me about the Watchtower is that they stil claim all of the respect and authority in the world but do not every want to accept the consequences with. The judgement of Deutronomy 18:20-22 is the best example.
Since you are studying with them there are things that they probally have havent told you and that You Know here wouldent want to mention ethier. They have an anwser for everything yes but thinking persons do not accept just any anwser, it has to be correct! If the anwsers that you get do not make sense then take action. Before you become dependant apon them totally. Verify what they say independantly.
Examples of things that you would be unaware of.
What they tell you:
The Watchtower claims that Jesus Christ returned invisibly in 1914 comencing the start of the last days. He set up his Kingdom in heaven and cast out Satan who was then restricted to the vicinity of the Earth. Satan realizing his time was short did all that he could do to creat havoc and bring as much people down to sheol with him. It resulted with World War 1. Since then they claim that the frequency of war, famine, plagues, earthquakes etc... Were increased and any resulting calamity such as the World Trade Center Attack is a shure sign of the last days. The end is shurley around the corner.
What they neglect to tell you:
I am shure that they would have forgotten to tell you that 1914 was not always seen as the end of the time of the Gentiles or the start of Christs presence but they would have probally have told you that their chronology was off in the past. They probally wouldent mention that it was off by 100 years!
In the begining the Bible students/Russelites held the end of the Gentile times as 1799. This date was also instrumental to the Second Adventis of that time. In 1843 William Miller and his followers the Second Adventis/ Millerites thought that the World would end. When the world dident go up in a big fire ball and Armageddon break out, they pushed the date foward to 1844. There was still much excitement for that date and they still expected to be raptured. When 1844 came and whent nothing happened again and they had to readjust their views. The prophecy was proven false.
A similar thing happened to the Russelites.
A man by the name of Nelson H. Barbhour once published a magazine but could not continue to print it due to lack of funds cause by his running out of subscribers. Nelson loost all of his scribers because of his building up the hopes of his followers for a period of time and then letting them down. He had predicted that the world would end in 1874. When that date came and went all his subscribers lost faith in him.
Nelson seeking to continue publshing his magazine became associated with Russel who still had a large audience and the financial resources. Nelson and Russel became publishing partners with Russel financing the project. In an attempt to explain the 1874 failed prophecy Nelson and Russel speculated that the greek work "prosouia" (sp?) could be translated "presence" instead of "coming." Mystery solved!
The world dident end because of a mistranslation in the King James Bible.
So Nelson was nolonger a false prophet.
But that failed prediction dident stop them.
In a series of other predictions, sepuclations, readjustments and failures, the 1799 date was abandonded as the end of the Gentile times. That was then moved to 1874. Now came the new intrepretations for the dates.
1874 the Invisible return of Jesus Christ.
Also 1874 was the start of Armagedonn with a forty year harvest leading to the end of the World.
1914 the end of Armageddon. (1874+40=1914)They now claim that the Witnesses have always held the 1914 date as a significant one. In actuality this only occured after the 1974 failed end time prediction.
They now use a supposedly biblical calculation method to arrive at th 1914 date. Starting from 607 counting 2550 years arriving at 1914.
607 is held by the Watchtower as the date for the destruction of jeruslem.There is absolutely no valid historical evidence to support this claim. There are no historian who are unrelated to the WBTS who support 607 as the date for the destruction of jesurelem. So the Watchtowers chronology is still off.
1914 is wrong.
What do they tell you:
The Governing Body of Jehovahs Witnesses are the most loving, caring, sacrificial, humble and unquestionably moral people in the world. Having great respect for life and try their best to preserve it. Eventhough they can be wrong they are the clostest thing on the earth to infallibility. They are the mediator between Jesus Christ and all men. They will rule the world in 'soon' with Jesus Christ when he destroys this wicked system of things. When they die they go directly to heaven. They compramise the faithfull and Discrete Slave who was appointed by Jesus Christ in 1918 when he judged all of the supposedly Christian Churches of the world who do not teach what the Bible says but hold to the traditions of men. They are now aging so they need help in carrying out their every day tasks but the Lord will soon Justify his prophets.
What they forget tell you:
The Faithfull and Discrete Slave is compromised by the 144000 privliaged persons who will accompany Jesus to Heaven these people are supposed to be the mediator between Jesus Christ and all men. The FDS is supposed to provide meat in due season. Eventhough the FDS is comprised of 144000 it is only the 12 members of the Governing Body who have any say reguarding organisational policy. If for instance you were to aks an annointed brother or sister if Jesus had provided any new light to them how would they relay this information to the Governing Body and have it printed in the magazine they would be at a lost for words. It should be mentioned that is not for the grater flock to appoint the members of the GB but one only is appointed if he fits the criteria set by the present members of the GB i.e. If you have an organisational attitude.
The Governing Body has claimed inspriation in the past by saying things like:"The words of Jehovah graced the lips of his servant" (this is not the exact quotation. But none the less anyone who jehovah has put his words into is inspired)
"Genuine prohet" (You are either a genuine prophet or a false prophet. Genuine prophets are inspired.)
"Only to them are the Books of Revelation and Daniel unsealed" ( To completly understand the Book of Revelation or Daniel requires inspriation. Plain and simple.)
"Sprit directed" (Now one would have to wonder what exactly does sprit directed mean)
"Angleic direction" ( What exactly do angels direct them to do? this is another claim of ispiration.)
The Governing Body has never flat out claimed that they are inspried but they have used other phrases which mean the same thing. This only leaves people to speculate to the contary.
BTW eventhough you may ask a witness if the Watchtower is inspired thay will tell you no. That seems to be due to the fact that they do not realize the apparent contradiction and that the Watchtower has apparently tried to cover its tacts by flat out denying it.What they tell you:
The Jehovahs witnesses whave highly trained medical health care professionals who carefully recearch all the pros and cons about any revoulotionary medical advice before they implement it. They also have Rocket scientis, lawers etc... All of them are among the most moral and ethical on the planet. Science is no problem.
What they do not tell you:
The Watchtower once predicted that man by no means rocket space ship etc will travel beyond this Earthly globe. That has been proven false.
They have previously banned:
Vaccinations
Organtransplants
Numerous Blood fractions etc...
But these three were the major killers.Most likely if you asked a Witness if these life saving procedures were baned they would not know off hand.
The Watchtower always claims that when ever a doctrine is changed it is because of New Revelation from God. let us examine each one briefly.
Vaccinations: Realizing that it would be difficult to obtain entry into a Country without being innoculated against major diseases like smallp[ox, the Watchtower had to revert this doctrine on the prohibition of vaccinations. They were previously held as "filthy puss" unclean in the sight of God and no Witness would want any thing to do with them. In fact they wanted witnesses to fight the matter and take it to congress.
The Watchtower under the presidency of Nohr changed this doctrine to
" A matter Of Conscience". No apology was ever given to the hurt it caused many people who may contracted some fatal illness which may have been prevented.Organtransplants: These also once view as disgusting things in the eyes of the Lord and no selfrespecting Witnesses would accept one of these. They were viewed a canablisim. As a result many people died refusing them. In 1980 I think it was the Watchtower under extreme legal pressure then decided that the scriptual evidence supporting the prohibition of organtransplants was "lacking" much as with the case of vaccinations. Again there was no apology for the lives that were lost. Accepting vaccinations then became a "matter of conscience."
Blood fractions: This I think is the most contraversial and most deadly. This doctrine is in the process of reform ( new revelation from God). Numerous fragments from blood were previously deemed unacceptable for infusion into the Body in the eyes of the lord. In the beginning NO BLOOD FRACTIONS WERE ALLOWED period. In fact once any blood left your body it was to be thrown away. These fractions are now a "matter of conscience."
Very important with this matter is that Witnesses are not allowed to donate any blood for themselves but they are allowed to accept the fractions which come from blood that other people donated.
What they tell you:
Jehovahs Witnesses are the happiest most loving caring and rigeteous people in the known world.
What they cannot admit to themselves.
The rate of mental illness is clearly higher than average in the Watchtower organisation.
Ask your brothers and sisters how many of them are on antidepressant drugs. The stresses involved in being a witnesses shuch as never being able to live up to the organisations can take its toll.
Jehovah witnesses have to work out their salvation instead of obtaining it freely through Gods grace. The constant fear of dying at Armageddon which is always just around the corner can truly take its toll.
Wgether or not you believe in salvation by grace alone which one do you think will make you more happy? Working for a place in paradise or God giving it to you freely because he loves you?~
This is just the tip of the iceberg when reguarding the faulty teachings of the Watchtower Scoiety.
If you do your own research you will realize that they may not be completly honest with you. So you may have to check things out for yourself.
Also very importantly:
Find out what mind controll is. So you may never become a victim of it.
jerome
The Bible is a two edged sword wield it for evil and it you may get hurt.
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Will Power
Better yet, discuss it with someone who is familiar with the issues and teachings of apostates. I have been debating issues related to my faith for years and I can tell you for a fact that there is nothing the apostates have that can stand up to the truth.
Thats a great idea! A new "publisher" should know the importance of worshipping the one true God and where he can get "accurate" knowledge. May I ask you, You Know to explain Rev. 22:12?
For convenience sake, here again is the WatchTower's history of this bible passage. I've asked you before if you could please explain but guess you were too busy that day, or maybe you don't think I'm serious? You have made serious remarks as to your expertise in the teaching of apostates, so could you please explain this one?
*** Watchtower 1955 July 1 p.387 Christ's Coming an Academic Question? ***
Jesus associated his return with the rewarding of his followers. Said he: "If I go my way and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you home to myself, that where I am you also may be." And again: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is." Paul understood it this way, for he wrote: "I have fought the right fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith. From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but to all those who have loved his manifestation."-John 14:3; Rev. 22:12; 2 Tim. 4:7, 8, NW.
*** Watchtower 1967 November 15 p.680 Make Up Your Mind Now as to Whom You Will Serve ***Jehovah God himself next speaks to John, revealing the critical situation, the extreme danger if any one of God's anointed ones becomes lax in the least way toward righteousness. Jehovah says: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is." -Rev. 22:12.
*** Watchtower 1978 October 1 p.15 "Keep on the Watch" ***6 Also, in his final revelation concerning "the things that must shortly take place," Jesus again stresses the suddenness with which he comes:
"I am coming to you quickly . . . I am coming quickly. Keep on holding fast what you have."-Rev. 2:16; 3:11."Look! I am coming quickly. . . . Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me. . . . Yes; I am coming quickly." (Rev. 22:7, 12, 20)
In response to these last expressions of our Master, surely each one of us joins with the apostle John in saying: "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus."
*** Watchtower 1988 June 15 p.20 Detest Utterly the World's Disgraceful Course ***Listen to how God himself describes, in his last recorded words in the Bible, the outcome for those who serve him and for those who do not: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. . . . Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority to go to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie."-Revelation 22:12-15.
*** Revelation Climax (1988) p.316 Ch.44 Revelation and You ***6 Jehovah, the King of eternity, now addresses readers of Revelation for the last time in the prophecy, saying: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Happy are those who wash their robes, that the authority to go to the trees of life may be theirs and that they may gain entrance into the city by its gates. Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie."-Revelation 22:12-15.
*** Watchtower 1999 Dec 1 p.19 Be Happy Readers of the Book of Revelation ***18 In the book of Revelation, Jesus announces several times: "I am coming quickly." (Revelation 2:16; 3:11; 22:7, 20a) He must yet come to execute judgment on Babylon the Great, Satan's political system, and on all humans who refuse to submit to Jehovah's sovereignty, as now expressed by the Messianic Kingdom. We join our voices with that of the apostle John, who exclaimed: "Amen! Come, Lord Jesus."-Revelation 22:20b.
I humbly wait for a reply, thank you.
19 Jehovah himself states: "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is." (Revelation 22:12) While awaiting the glorious reward of life without end as a part of either the promised "new heaven" or the "new earth," may we zealously join in extending the invitation to all honesthearted people: "'Come!' And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life's water free." (Revelation 22:17) May they also become happy readers of the inspired and inspiring book of Revelation! -
Mister Biggs
Meow921-
Hello. Please listen to the opinions of everyone who responded, positively or negatively. Weigh them. Most importantly, pray earnestly for guidance and direction.
As far as You Know goes, he appears to be hypocritical, for on the one hand he says:
Your continuing to lurk among us only pretending to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses is not an admirable thing to do and gives evidence that you are in reality a very weak-minded and cowardly individual who would rather live a lie than stand up for his convictions. Why should anyone give any credence to the jaundiced opinions of such spineless individuals?
Yet, on the other hand, he's hiding under a rock himself. Ask him to tell you what congregation he goes to or what his real identity is or if his elders know that he frequents this and probably other ex-JW sites. He wouldn't be able to answer those types of questions honestly (if at all) because he himself is a coward, in fear of men that would discipline him for mingling with former JW's.Meow921,
Never be afraid to do research on any important decision you may make, whether it is choosing a religion or otherwise.
You Know, me, or anyone else here doesn't have to live with your decision. Only you have to live with it. Do whatever you feel will be most beneficial for yourself and your family, be it becoming a JW or not. Also, let God guide you.Biggsy
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AvailableLight
Meow,
You Know's posts are perhaps the best reasons you'll find *not* to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Is he the kind of person you'd like to spend your life associating with? Does he display the love that Christ taught?
Interestingly, he spends his time pathetically defending the righteousness of an organization he clearly does not agree with and that would most certainly disfellowship him if they knew of his beliefs. He is far more hypocritical than any he's ever accused of apostasy. He is himself an apostate in hiding as defined by the JW religion through his words and actions.
He is also most likely counting field service time every time he posts here.
I was going to leave you with one question to get you thinking, You Know beat me to it.
He said:
Many are drug users, drunkards, and fornicators, homosexuals and perverts. And if they are not they at least support and encourage those who are and congratulate anyone who flauts decency and morality. From Jehovah's standpoint they are mere unreasoning animalistic beasts. That's why verse 22 likens them to dogs that have returned to lapping up their own vomit.
If this is true, then why are JWs taught so strongly to avoid what apostates have to say? If JWs really have the truth, then what are the JW leaders so afraid of the R&F finding out?Wouldn't you agree that truth is unconditional? JW literature often accuses "apostate" literature of being "sly as a serpent" and "deceptive." But so what? No matter how clever wording may be, if something is the truth it is indisputable. Don't you think this would be especially the case where God's word the Bible is concerned? Therefore if the JWs really have the true religion, it wouldn't matter what any drug using, drunkard, fornicating, homosexual, perverted "apostate" had to say.
As has been recommended, read Ray Franz's "Crisis of Conscience." You'll find that the wording is quite straightforward and simple and the events he recounts are quite well documented.
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LB
Meow I was shocked how things changed after I got baptised. I wasn't the favorite son after that. You really get love bombed when you are studying.
I studied with an elder. When we were covering getting baptised he mentioned I needed to get rid of my voter registration and quit the Catholic Church. Send them a letter. I asked him now difficult it would be, down the road, if I wanted to quit being a JW. He said no problem, it's just a form we fill out. He had done it dozens of times.
OK, something important was left out of this. If I were to quit then my son would no longer be allowed to speak to me. He didn't mention this. He didn't mention that everyone that professed to be my friend would shun me.
The guilt trip for missing meetings doesn't happen when you study. But when you are baptised try missing some. You'll get the "we missed you last meeting, it was so encouraging, wish you were here" and then should you want to have some "privledges" like handing out magazines or something then you'll be told you need to show Jehovah you care by showing up to all the meetings.
I'm only inactive now Meow, yet no one talks to me any longer. These people have all turned their backs on me, because I stopped attending. It isn't easy to deal with this.
Never Squat With Yer Spurs On