Signs - Jesus - Has the Scripture Been Misread ?

by *lost* 55 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  scary21

  I think you would like to read ...Sign of the last days when ? by Carl Olof Jonsson ( ex JW ). That is what he believes , the opposite .

  Sherry
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  Ucantnome

  I agree
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  Bobcat

  "Matthew 24:30 - . . . And then "all the peoples of the earth" (Greek: pasai ai phulai tes ges) will mourn"

  Actually, "all the tribes of the earth" is very clevery written/spoken so as to have a possible dual fulfillment.

  "Tribes" can be used for the Jews or for mankind in general (Compare Rev 1:7; 7:9; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6)

  "Earth" can refer to the whole planet, but also to the "land," i. e. specifically, the promised land or the land that Israel occupied.

  Whether the Bible writers meant it that way is another issue. But the words themselves allow for a strictly Jewish first century fulfillment and/or a wider earthwide fulfillment.

  "Matthew 24:32, 33 - "Now learn a lesson from the fig tree."

  One could argue that Luke did not understand "the fig tree" to refer to the one Jesus cursed. Luke's parallel account reads, "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. As soon as they sprout . . ." (Luke 21:29, 30 NRSV; "Note the fig tree and all the other trees: 30 When they are already in the bud . . ." NWT)

  Matthew 24:22: "In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive.

  V. 22 literally reads, "And if those days (Greek ai hemerai ekeinai; literally "the days those") had not been cut short . . ."

  V. 29 picks up the reference to "those days," saying, "Immediately after the suffering of those those days . . ." (Same Greek expression for "those days.") The events "immediately after," as described by Luke (Luke 21:25, 26), involve "anguish of nations," "men" (anarthrous), and "the inhabited earth."

  That, combined with the reference in Matthew just prior, to fleeing from "Judea" could allow one to take the expressions in Matthew 24:21, 22 as referring (in an exaggerated way) to the Jews (Christian and non-Christian alike). In other words, they could be read either locally to just the Jewish catastrophe and/or on a much wider scale. From the Christian viewpoint, only Christian Jews were ransomed from the divine judgment coming upon the Jewish nation. Gallus' intervention and subsequent events threatened to cut off escape for the only ones who had a 'survival ticket,' so to speak. So that one could (contextually) view the 'no flesh surviving' as the Christian refugees of Jerusalem and Judea

  Not trying to start any argument. Simply looking at the possibilities.
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  mP

  @lost

  awlessness

  Alcohol - abuse, misuse

  Occult

  Immorality. Wicked reasonings, murders, adulteries, fornications, thieveries, false testomonies, blasphemies.

  Man of Lawlessness -man of sin, son of perditon ( lost child( ( the child of corruption ) (Judas)

  mP:

  Alcoholism, adultery, fornication, blasphemy and occultism were not illegal in Jesus time. Hell they arent illegal today. Before others jump on me, drinking and driving is illegal, alcoholism itself is not. You can drink until your blind in most countries if you do desire to ruin your liver.
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  cofty

  So is he saying that major upheavals are going to happen in the history of mankind - wars and reports of wars - but don't let them frighten you. Don't be mislead and think they mean the end is near/here.

  Precisely!

  Don't forget that Jesus clearly taught that he would return within the lifetime of his disciples so the WT are no worse false prophets than Jesus was.
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  Phizzy

  The thing to remember is that both Matthew and Luke were written after 70 C.E. and both with an agenda.

  (Parts of Mark may pre-date 70C.E, possibly, but our dear Leolaia has shown in a post on here, that what appears to be prophecy about the 70CE problems is nothing of the sort.)

  The devastating shock of losing the Temple, to a Temple centric religion, had to be salvaged somehow, so the "prophecy" is made to look prescient about the outcome for the Temple, and therefore can be believed as to the imminence of Christ's return.

  But as you say, JW's and others have not actually read what the scurrilous little tracts that are Matthew and Luke actually say.

  Its a bit like the pathetic Young Earth Creationists who have not read with comprehension what Genesis actually says.
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  mP

  BobCat

  Matthew 24:32, 33 - "Now learn a lesson from the fig tree."

  One could argue that Luke did not understand "the fig tree" to refer to the one Jesus cursed. Luke's parallel account reads, "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. As soon as they sprout . . ." (Luke 21:29, 30 NRSV; "Note the fig tree and all the other trees: 30 When they are already in the bud . . ." NWT)

  mP:

  The reason for the figtree story is because Jesus is here shown to be Dionysuis who was god of the fig and wine etc. Most of the magical stories in the gospels are where Jesus one ups somebody. The loaves and fishes is animproved form of themiracle Elijah performed but he of course feed less people wiht more fishes.
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  *lost*

  1st Century Jerusalem - GT started - army came - retreated.

  The 1st GT was cut short, christians left for the mountain. The GT restarted with the return of the army.

  Luke 17;26 ( days of Noah) When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah's day. ( the situation will be like the time of Noah )

  The world will be taken by surprise with the sudden judgement Judgement of God.

  Though the antedeluvian world and the cities of the plain were awfully wicked. It is not their wickedness but their worldliness, their unbelief and indifferences to the future, their unpreparedness, that is here held up as a warning. Luke 17;28 - same as in the days of Lot.

  They made no sort of provision for their immortal souls. Universal carelessness and no one seemed to regard the warnings given by the Son of God.

  But they lived in an extravagent and luxurious manner. they indulged their sensual appetites and put away the evil day far from them, that Noah told them of. The Spirit of God strove with men, by sending Enoch, Noah ( maybe others) to preach to them.

  HE would leave them to be hardened in sin and ripened for destruction. Man was carnal and depraved, they had no regard to the poor and needy, they made no conscience of defrauding and oppressing them.

  Matt 24;14

  And the gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all the nations. Preaching the Gospel indiscriminately to ''all'' Gentiles. Then the end shall come.

  The end of the Jewish economy, the destruction of the temple and the city. ( in all the world - no more is meant here than the Roman Empire. The preaching spread out - ) and then the end shall come, NOT the end of the world, the end of the Jewish state.

  Acts 2;17

  In the last days God says '' I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions your old men dreams. ( last days - future times )

  Simply '' in this future times when the Messiah shall have come''

  ''Pour out my Spirit'' communicating largely or freely. He will bestow large measures of spiritual influences. ''All'' - not every individual - every class or rank, old men, youth, servants etc saons and daughters

  ''Prophesy'' is used in a great variety of senses. 1. predict, foretell future events. 2. to divine, to conjecture, to declare. 3. to celebrate the praises of God, being under divine influence. 4. to teach - the doctrines of religion. visions-seers-prophets

  '' Afterwards'' is the same ''as in the last days''

  Acts 2;18

  In those days I will pour my spirit on my servants - on both men and women. They will speak what god has revealed. ''confined to no class''

  Luke 12;45

  the servant (wicked) gave himself up to a wicked and licentious way of living. (to beat) begins to persecute the ministers of the Gospel and the true disciples of Christ. Such persecutors of Christs faithful followers are commonly drunkards and debauchees

  Romans 16;14

  For they are spirits of devils working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty.

  miracles, wonders to deceive the world. Affect and influence kings and Rulers.

  Pagan superstition, Muhammedan delusion, Papacy, (false religion) control/influence Kings and Princes. ( to gather them - not to a place - to unite and combine them that it might be representing as an assembly of the hosts for battle.

  These still embrace so large a portion of the globe, that it might be said, that what would affect those powers now would influence the whole world.

  Battle of the Great Day - NOT the day of judgement. but the say which would determine the ascendency of true religion in the world. The final conflict with those powers which had so long opposed the Gospel. Not a literal battle.

  There would be a combined struggle against the truth.

  They will persuade them to gather together to fight against the Gentile Christians in several parts of the world.

  Rev 19;19

  And I saw the beast. NOT the devil, NOT the Roman pagan empire - which had been destroyed long ago (under the 6th seal, and was the issue of the battle between Michael and his angels, and the dragon and his,) ? not sure about this, more study needed) but the anti-christian Civil powers or anti-christ in his Civil capacity (?)
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  mP

  @cofty

  Post 7786 of 7788 Since 12/19/2009

  So is he saying that major upheavals are going to happen in the history of mankind - wars and reports of wars - but don't let them frighten you. Don't be mislead and think they mean the end is near/here. Precisely! Don't forget that Jesus clearly taught that he would return within the lifetime of his disciples so the WT are no worse false prophets than Jesus was.

  MP:
  Actually i think Jesus said the son of god and son of man will returned. You are making the eror that Jesus would returned. What if he was actually talking about somebody else ? The answer is to check who returned in 70AD who was a Son of a God. History tells us a god did send his son. If you verify the rest of Jesus prophecies you will see that they are true, but the problem is you might not like the candidate predicted.

  Im pretty sure everyone accepts that the gospels were written after the temple was destroyed which makes the prophecies actually commentaries. Combine this with Jesus teachings and its fairly obvious what the purpose of the entire gospel message is.
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  cofty

  You are making the eror that Jesus would returned. What if he was actually talking about somebody else ?

  No he was talking about himself. He was a delusional apocalyptic cult leader.