Signs - Jesus - Has the Scripture Been Misread ?

by *lost* 55 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Cassuk: Some good points made.

    However care must be taken to avoid the logical fallacy of grouping separate events into one, when that is not the case. From their questions, the disciples probably lumped them (judgment on Jerusalem and world judgment) together as well. Jesus straightened them out by separating the two. One would occur before the generation then living passed away; the other at a future unknowable date. Two separate judgments; one preceded by days unparalleled trouble/vengeance upon the Jews, that would be local, you could flee Judea to escape, hopefully not in winter or with suckling infants in toe; the precise moment of which you could know and anticipate and run from. The other judgment would happen on a single day, worldwide, snare on the entire earth, occurring in normal, marrying and working times, unknowable impossible of anticipation, impossible to flee from, some taken from their beds, fields etc. others left. Jesus made it very clear that His personal arrival/presence on earth (parousia) would not accompany the judgment on Jerusalem to deliver anyone; no secret presence; when His presence on earth would happen, it would be obvious and earth-shattering.

    The "great tribulation" (days of vengeance) culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a localized coming ercmomai of Christ in judgment; an event which one could anticipate as to timing, and escape from on foot...weather permitting and after which the Jews who were not slain, would be carried off into all nations....all this in the lifetime of some in Jesus' audience (37 years removed) The parousia of our Lord however, was spoken of as future worldwide coming, impossible to escape by running anywhere, impossible to anticipate as to timing, where believers will be taken/removed from beds and workplace during normal times when people will be carrying on as usual just like in the time of Noah. No signs, no warning, no fleeing and worldwide.

    Leola pu t it this way:

    “ The word parousia does not necessarily denote both "an arrival and a consequent presence"; it commonly denoted just the arrival, such as a terminus or an end-point of a time period (such as a state of affairs continuing UNTIL someone arrives). It is trivially easy to find clear examples of this in Greek literature. The parousia itself would then be a sudden change of the situation as opposed to being itself a duration. That is how it is used in the synoptic apocalypse. It is used interchangeably with erkhomai, and is an event that occurs suddenly or unexpectedly. The comparison of the parousia to the Flood of Noah emphasizes the suddenness of the event that will END an ongoing state of affairs. What was arriving to those on the earth was the Flood itself; it wasn't "invisibly present" beforehand. And even if it was, what happened during those years long before the Flood that made the Flood go from "not present" to "present"? Don't you see the problem? "Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left" (v. 40-41). That pertains to the parousia, in analogy with the Flood, and it highlights the suddenness of the event; people would be in the midst of their daily activities when it happens, just as those before the Flood were in the midst of eating, drinking, and so forth. The arrival denoted by the parousia isn't invisible either; " For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. " (v. 27). Sure there would be a presence after this, but it isn't one unremarked upon by the world at large. It was going to be absolutely obvious, with a spectacle in the sky and with a loud trumpet call from the heavens.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    The parables are quite clear on this:

    Mar 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do?
    He will come (ε?´ρχομαι erchomai) and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

    Matthew 21:

    38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

    39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

    40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh (ε?´ρχομαι erchomai), what will he do unto those husbandmen?

    41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

    42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

    45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

    Luke 20:

    13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.

    Luk 20:14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.

    Luk 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him . What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

    Luk 20:16 He shall come (ε?´ρχομαι erchomai) , and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it , they said, God forbid.

    Luk 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

    Luk 20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

    Luk 20:19 And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

    The Lord did come and destroy those husbandmen (leaders) using the Romans army when they destroyed Jerusalem and killed almost everyone in it. And He did leave their house desolate and gave the vineyard to others who would bring forth the fruit. The vineyard represents the kingdom.

    The timing on this is relevant:
    Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come (ε?´ρχομαι erchomai).
    Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.
    Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming (ε?´ρχομαι erchomai)in his kingdom.

    This coming in vengeance and kingdom power, would climax the tribulation and occur in the lifespan of Christ's own generation. (Matthew 24:34)
    Matthew 24:34

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (ε?´ρχομαι erchomai) , in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Notice in verse 30 where the Son of man is located. Unlike the parousia, this coming was not to be a personal coming to earth; the destruction of Jerusalem was to be orchestrated from heaven. And as predicted, the tribes did mourn, their lives lost or uprooted, their temple, the symbol of God's favor and presence and true worship, removed for all time.

  • cofty
    cofty

    This thread reminds me of the great lengths Freddie Franz went to to make 2000 year old nonsense sound relevant and profound.

    He predicted his imminent parousia - still waiting.

    Jesus was a deluded, self-obsessed apocalyptic cult leader who got himself killed for being a bloody pest.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Whenever the word parousia is used in scripture (both in the gospels and epistles), it is unmistakably referring to the second personal coming of Christ at the end of the world.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Yes. He was clear that this was imminent. He was a false prophet.

  • Brother of the Hawk
    Brother of the Hawk

    Wow, this thread has realy developed. I had this conversation with my mom years ago when I was very active as a JW, but did question some things. One was on the point at Matt 24:20 "Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime nor on the sabbath day."

    My mom you see, was concerned the "Great Tribulation" was going to happen in wintertime, and fleeing to the mountains was going to be difficult.

    My point is this, Jesus words could have only applied back then, If Jesus was encouraging us ( modern day man ) to pray in this way, than it would be impossible for God to answer it, and it would be a big disssapointment, for you see while it is wintertime in Australia it is summer in America, and visa versa. So, this prayer would be impossible for God to answer, Why would Christ do that to us, knowing it was not going to happen that way. so this prophecy only has application to 70 c.e. ( just use a little common sense and reason it out)

    The Entity that calls itself Jehovah Witnesses is a controlling cult that wants its members living in fear. Fred Franz was an expert at such controll.

    Affectionately: Brother of the Hawk ( I will surrender my mind no more, forever)

  • Brother of the Hawk
    Brother of the Hawk

    Vanderhoven7 I reread your above points more closely and slowly, I do believe you are correct in saying Jesus was pointiog to 2 judgments. I never thought to seperate these before. Thank you!!! Rev 16:15 Jesus says he is coming as a thief. When a thief strikes, there is NO warning, to known timing, the householder is preoccupied with life, and vulnerable. Caught completely off guard!!!! That is what Jesus meant coming as a thief. As you stated one judgment was escapeable, and the other is not. So my earlier question still stands, about any scripture showing a dual application. It is not, it is two seperate judgments. Thanks again.

    Just a side thought regarding the PAROUSIA. I do understand the meaning,and how it is connected to the "end", my thought is this, since Christ during the 1000 year reign, is going to bring mankind to perfection, could it not also coinside with HIS presence? Since it Jesus that brings the kingdom to its completeness and hands it over to God?

    Affectionately: Brother of the Hawk (I will surrender my mind no more, forever)

  • *lost*
    *lost*

    I always saw it as being two-fold. And I learnt that as a JW.

    I'm realising how much JW's who gave so many years to Bible 'study' actually know very little about it. Even myself. I think that is a big part of the problem. People either do not understnad what they are reading/researching/studying.

    Or

    They really don't want to. Which is ok, people don't have to.

    SUPERSESSIONISM

    It signifies one thing being replaced or supplanted by anothr.

    application of a modern term to older news.

    Both christian and jewish theologians have identified different types of supersessionism in Christian reading of the Bible.

    Jewish theologin and Rabbinic scholar David Novak suggests there are

    3 options.

    1. The new covenant is an extension of the old covenant

    2. The new covenant is in addition to the old covenant.

    3. the new covenant is a replacemnet for the old covenant.

    these 3 views are neither mutually exclusive, nor logically dependant, and it is possible to hold all or any one with or without the others.

    Signs of the last days.

    If you actually research each sign, their meaning, you will come to realise that it's actually telling us about 'SOCIETY' how society and people would be in that time, just as in the days of Noah.

    It doesn't mean descending into degredation and violence ( I think ).

    SPIRITUALITY

    The use of the term has changed throughout the ages. In modern times it is often seperated from religion and connotes a blend of humanistic psychology with mystical and esoteric traditions and eastern religions aimed at

    Personal well being and

    Personal development.

    The traditional meaning of spirituality is a process of re-formation. the re-formation aims to recover the original shape of man, in the image of God. to accomplish this, the re-formation is oriented at a mould.

    Which represents the original shape. ( organised religion - is a forgery of man. It's not true to The Bible this is what Jesus was/is teaching us)

    E.g

    1 Tim 1;19

    For men shall be lovers of themselves.

    it shall be one of the characteristics of those times that men shall be eminently selfish, ( evidently under the garb of religion )

    Selfish

    The selfishness that is condemned, is the regard to our own interests which interferes with the rights aand comforts of others. Which makes self the central and leading object of living and which tramples on all that would interfere with that.

    As such, it is a base, and hateful, and narrow passion; but it has been so common in the world that no one can doubt the correctness of the prophecy of the apostle that it would exist '' in the last times ''

    Indicates a decline of religion ?

    Religion makes us grateful to every benefactor - to God and man. ( but false religion is the opposite, the things condemned)

    Spirituality.

    1. Ancient religious meaning.

    2.Modern societal meaning.

    The disciples didn't understand, just as Daniel didn't understand what he was writing, and John. they were not supposed to understand all of it. They were supposed to record and preserve the teachings for the benefit of man.

    They had different language, different meanings, different culture. DIFFERENT SOCIETY. Look how much has changed in the last 100 yrs.

    Revelation Armageddon

    The battle is actually the forces of evil coming against God himself.

    this war has actually been going on for centuries, but it is the CULMINATION of it all. people are so busy focusing on bashing God, they do not focus on his adversary the Devil.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Brother of the Halk,

    Yes, I'm with you on the millennium.

    As to the two judgments coverd in the Olivet Discourse, I'm including the following:

    THE OLIVET DISCOURSE- A Collation of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21

    TWO JUDGMENTS: The Destruction of the Temple and the Second Coming

    The Temple's Fate:

    1 And as He went forth out of the temple, one of His disciples says to Him, “Master, behold, what manner of goodly stones and what manner of buildings and offerings!”
    2 And Jesus said to him, Do you see these great buildings? the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another, which shall not be thrown down.

    Beginning of Troubles Leading to Jerusalem's Destruction:

    3 And as He sat on the mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
    4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are all about to be accomplished, and of your coming (parousia) and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered and said to them, “Take heed that no man lead you astray.”
    5 “For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ/I am He’, and ‘the time is at hand’, and will lead many astray.”
    6 “And when you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be not troubled/terrified, it is necessary for these things to come about first; but the end is not yet/immediately.”
    7 Then said He to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom,”
    8 “And there will be great earthquakes, and in divers places famines and pestilences; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. But all these things are the beginning of birth pains.”
    9 “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you, and will persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake, for a testimony to them. Then will they deliver you up to tribulation, and will kill you.”
    10 “But you will be delivered up even by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends, and some of you will they cause to be put to death. And then will many stumble, and will deliver up one another, and will hate one another. And you will be hated of all men for My Name’s sake”
    11 “And brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated of all men for My Name’s sake.”
    12 “And when they lead you to judgment, and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand what you will say, but whatever will be given you in that hour, that speak, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.”
    13 “Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer, for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries will not be able to withstand or to gainsay.”
    14 “And many false prophets will arise, and will lead many astray, and because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of the many will wax cold.”
    15 “But not a hair of your head will perish. 16 In your patient endurance you will win your souls for he who endures to the end, the same will be saved.”
    17 “A nd this gospel of the kingly rule will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then will the end come.”

    The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Destruction: 18 “When therefore you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not in the holy place (let him who reads understand), that is to say, when you see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.”
    19
    “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let him who is on the housetop not go down to take out things that are in his house, and let him who is in the field (countryside) not return back to take his cloak.”
    20 “For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
    21 “But woe to those who are with child and to those who are breast feeding in those days!”
    22 And pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a Sabbath,”
    23 “For then will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created, until now, no, nor ever shall be, for there will be great distress on the land, and wrath to this people.”

    No Second Personal Coming (Parousia) During Jerusalem’s Woes:
    24 Then if any man shall say to you, ‘Lo, here is the Christ’, or, ‘Here’; believe it not. For there will arise false Christs, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if it were possible, even the elect. But take heed. Behold, I have told you beforehand.”
    25 “If therefore they shall say to you, ‘Behold, he is in the wilderness’, go not forth, ‘Behold, he is in the inner chambers’, believe it not.” 26 “For as the lightning comes forth from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming (parousia)of the Son of man.”

    The Onslaught on Jerusalem and its Aftermath:
    27 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days there will be signs in the sun, moon and stars, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and on the earth there will be distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows, men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken,”
    28“And then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
    29 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations, and Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved, but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.”
    30 “Wherever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”
    31 “And He will send forth his angels (messengers) with a great sound of a trumpet (gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ), and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” 32 “But when these things begin to come about, look up, and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
    33 “Now from the fig tree learn her parable. When her branch is now become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that the summer is near, even so you also, when you see all these things, know you that He is near ( the Kingly Rule of God is near), even at the doors.”
    34 “Truly I say to you, This generation will not pass away, until all these things are accomplished.”
    35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.”

    The Future Second Coming (Parousia) of Christ and its Distinctiveness:
    (Worldwide Event, Normal Times, No Signs Given, Timing impossible to Anticipate, No Running Necessary, Saints Taken)
    36 “But of that day and hour knows no one, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.” 37 “And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming (parousia) of the Son of man.”
    38 “For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away. So shall be the coming (parousia) of the Son of man.”
    39 “Take heed, watch and pray, for you do not know when the time is, lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day come on you suddenly as a snare, for so will it come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth.”
    40 “But watch you at every season, making supplication, that you may prevail to escape all these things that will come about, and to stand before the Son of man.”
    41 “It is as when a man, sojourning in another country, having left his house, and given authority to his servants, to each one his work, commanded also the porter to watch.”
    42 “Watch therefore, for you do not know when the lord of the house is coming, whether at eventide, or at midnight, or at cock-crowing, or in the morning, lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say to you I say to all, Watch.”

    43 “Then will two men be in the field, one is taken, and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill, one is taken, and one is left. Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have watched, and would not have allowed his house to be broken through.
    44 “Therefore you also be ready, for in an hour that you do not think the Son of man is coming.”
  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Daniel 7

    24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time (3.5 years).


    Matthew 24

    9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, (as to why Jerusalem merited destruction) and then the end (destruction) will come.


    Matthew 23

    33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.


    Matthew 24

    15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

    Revelation 11

    2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

    Romulus writes:

    If we say true to the audience of Jesus(contemporaries) then we can easily see the fulfillment. The tribulation against Jerusalem as stated in the warning to Judea when they see the "abomination that causes desolation" to flee to the mountains occurred according to Luke 21 which is the same event, written to a gentile audience rather then Matthew's audience of Jews as "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies". This occurred in 66 A.D. when Titus surrounded Jerusalem and then left for no reason. This gave the believers in Christ's warning to flee to the mountains of Pella. Titus returned in February of 67 A.D. and began the 3.5 year/42 month siege against Jerusalem, ending in the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem on August 30/31 70 A.D.

    The tribulation I beleive to be a past event. It fits accurately with Christ's statement that "this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.A biblical generation is 40 years. Jesus spoke this around 30 A.D. and it was fufilled within a generation in 70 A.D.

    The current economic problems I don't believe to be about the Great Tribulation but rather a judgment on America. Jesus is on the throne and the cries of 4000 children every day reaches His ears. This nation is under the judgment of God for the murder of abortion. Even the Church today has made the economy the number 1 issue in their minds while the cry of babies is thrown into the background. Is this not greed at it's worst when a nation is more concerned with their own welfare while the cries of children go unheard, even in the minds of Christians. Why as the Church do we overlook the cry of the innocent for the price of a gallon of gas? or the amount of money that will be on our social security checks, or even for tax breaks and basically more money for ME!!!!!! rather then to listen to the cries of children who only want to live?

    Forget the economy, God is in control of that. Pray for the end to abortion in this nation, and support efforts of those that understand what this is. Would God in His love, if you were in the womb right now ever turn away from you as the knife comes closer to ending your life? Would He ever put you by the side in favor of social issues such as gas, and healthcare? Never, He loves you more then life itself. He gave His Son so that we may live. Would God then forget HIs little ones who are in the womb right now? The loudest prayer to God is the cry of children. Until those cries cease this nation will not recover.

    Pray for the unborn. Blessings! Romulus;

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit