Signs - Jesus - Has the Scripture Been Misread ?

by *lost* 55 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    The "fig tree" reference is often interpreted as a reference to when the State of Israel would be established.

    From WIKIPEDIA:

    Interpretations

    Luke presents this parable as eschatological in nature: [ 1 ] like the leaves of the fig tree, the signs spoken of in the Olivet discourse of Luke 21:5-28 [ 2 ] indicate the coming of the Kingdom of God.

    An alternate interpretation is that the fig tree represents the nation of Israel being politically reestablished in their land once again. Accordingly, when the modern state of Israel was formed on May 14, 1948, Hal Lindsey concluded that we are in the last generation. [ 3 ] [ 4 ] Many scholars, however, disagree with this view. [ 5 ] [ 6 ] [ 7 ] [ 8 ]

    ---------------------

    In the case where the fig tree represents the new State of israel, it would mean that the messiah does not arrive before that event and thus not before the Spring of 1948. But it also would mean the messiah has to arrive very shortly thereafter. The messiah was born in January of 1950. He must be tested for 40 years and thus up to 1939, the beginning of the 70th week of the 2nd coming.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    MATTHEW 24

    Re: OLIVET DISCOURSE; Parallels: Luke 21:7, Mark 13:4

    CENTRAL QUESTION:

    Is it possible that Matthew 24 (verses 1-35)
    was entirely fulfilled in the first century?

    Which "generation" was Christ referring to in Matthew 24:34? (the time text)

    - To which generation was Christ referring in Matthew 23:36?

    - If the judicial sentence & prophetic woe of Mat.23:36
    applies to Christ's generation, would not the exact same
    terminology in Mat.24:34 have the same application?

    LET'S CONSIDER ALL POSSIBLE GENERATIONAL APPLICATIONS.

    CHRIST COULD HAVE INTENDED BY VERSE 34 THAT:

    a. "all these things" were to happen to the 20th century
    generation exclusively.

    - Impossible: conversation centers on "these stones"
    which were knocked down in 70 AD.

    - Impossible Lu.21:23-24 states that subsequent to great
    distress, Jews were to be led captive to all nations which
    occurred immediately after the 70 AD destruction.

    b. "all these things" were to happen to both Christ's
    generation and our generation. (dual fulfillment theory)

    - Impossible: -these buildings and are already destroyed.

    - Impossible -Jews are not to be led captive into all
    nations again at Christ's second coming.

    - Impossible -Matt.24:21 precludes dual fulfillment.

    c. "all these things" were to happen to Christ's generation
    exclusively.

    • Thi s is a possibility....b ut it would help if it can be shown
      that "all these things" declared before verse 34 actually
      did happen to the generation Jesus addressed ?

    QUESTION: Was Matthew 24: 1 - 35 entirely fulfilled in the first century?

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    "THIS GENERATION " : Matthew 24

    The Greek word genea appears 10 times in Matthew's gospel. Once is it used to mean “one set of parents to the next”. In 6 of the instances Matthew places the definite article “this” (houtos) before generation “ houtos genea “(ghen-eh-ah') It seems to me that in every instance, “this generation” covers the same group of people - “Christ's contemporaries”

    Mt 11:16 But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)
    Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
    (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)
    Mt 12:42 "The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here. (the persons then living contemporary with Christ).
    Mt 12:45 "Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself.... That is the way it will also be with this evil generation." (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)
    Mt 17:17 And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? ..." (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)
    Mt 23:36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
    (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)
    In Context Mat 23:29-36
    29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. :33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of Gehenna? 34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    Mt 24:34
    "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.(Perhaps a 100 year overlapping 20th/21st century generation???? - not!)
  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    The great tribulation of Matthew 24 is a thing of the past.


    15. WHEN YE THEREFORE SHALL SEE THE ABOMINATION
    OF DESOLATION, SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL THE PROPHET,
    STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE, (WHOSO READETH, LET HIM
    UNDERSTAND

    The Abomination of Desolation is a Jewish expression meaning
    abominable or hateful destroyer. The gentiles themselves were
    an abomination to the Jews. Acts 10 28. The Abomination of
    desolation refers to the Roman army (Luke 21:20). This was
    SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL THE PROPHET: Da.11:31 Da.9:27
    All Jerusalem was considered holy; not only its temple Mt.14:5.
    The meaning here is; When you see the Roman army encamped
    about the Holy city; Christ's followers were to be aware that
    Jerusalem's time was limited.

    "Something else which testifies in favor of this last point is the way that Matthew and Mark both speak of the "abomination of desolation" with an appeal to Daniel, and then give a nod to their (presumably) Jewish audiences by the parenthetical instruction "let the reader understand" - but Luke, thinking that his Gentile audience might not understand the reference, simply interprets the apocalyptic language into the terms of its referent: "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near." This further strengthens the view that all three accounts are relaying the same discourse, in which Jesus is answering the same questions, and that all three accounts are concerned, from their respective vantage-points, with the destruction of Jerusalem as the climactic event through which Jesus' messianic claims would be vindicated to that generation. "

    16. THEN LET THEM WHICH BE IN JUDAEA FLEE INTO THE
    MOUNTAINS:
    (Will fleeing to mountains help anyone today?)
    The presence of the Roman armies was the specific sign to cue
    believers that the end of Jerusalem was nigh and that they should
    seek safety. The whole of Judea would not be safe so the mountains
    of Palestine were to be resorted to in danger.

    17. LET HIM WHICH IS ON THE HOUSETOP NOT COME DOWN
    TO TAKE ANYTHING OUT OF HIS HOUSE:

    (Should today's dwellers in Jerusalem take their valuables with them when they repair their roofs?)

    18. NEITHER LET HIM WHICH IS IN THE FEILD RETURN BACK
    TO TAKE HIS CLOTHES.

    When the calamity came upon the city, those in Judea, or in the fields
    should flee without any delay or encumbrance.

    HISTORICAL NOTE: These directions were followed. It is said that
    the Christians warned by these predictions, fled from the city to
    Pella and other places beyond Jordan so that there is no evidence
    that a single Christian perished in Jerusalem.
    (Eusebius, Hist.Eccl.lib.3, chapter 6)
    19. AND WOE TO THEM THAT ARE WITH CHILD, AND TO THEM
    WHICH GIVE SUCK IN THOSE DAYS!

    Pregnant women, and those with young children would be at a
    great disadvantage and peril as they attempt to flee the oncoming
    slaughter. Jesus warning in Luke 23:28-30 on his way to Calvary
    fits here:
    Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves,
    and for your children. For behold, the days are coming, in the which
    they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never
    bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin
    to say to the mountains, Fall on us: and to the hills, Cover us:
    20. BUT PRAY YE THAT YOUR FLIGHT BE NOT IN WINTER,
    NEITHER ON THE SABBATH DAY:

    (Why worry about the weather today when cars have good heaters and great snow tires?)
    The destruction would come, but it was advisable to pray for a
    mitigation of the circumstances. Winter's cold would reduce
    the possibility of escape and survival. If the flight was on a Sabbath,
    Jews were not by tradition to travel over 2000 cubits (nearly a mile)
    and they would therefore not get out of the range of danger. The
    gates of the city were also closed on the Sabbath preventing escape.
    21. FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH
    AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD
    TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE.

    The word tribulation means calamity or suffering. Lu.21:24
    specifies the nature of this suffering. Josephus uses almost
    the very words of the Saviour. "All the calamities says he, which
    had befallen any nation from the beginning of the world, were but
    small in comparison to those suffered by the Jews.
    (Jewish Wars, b.i. preface, p.4)

    THEY SHALL FALL BY THE EDGE OF THE SWORD. Lu.21:24
    Josephus says that the whole city ran with blood and that during
    the siege not fewer than eleven hundred thousand perished.
    In all, one million, three hundred and fifty thousand were put to
    death by the Romans. So many were crucified that they ran out
    of crosses for the bodies. So terrible was their imprecation
    fulfilled - His blood be on us and our children.
    Da.12:1 time of trouble at end as never before
    Mt.21:43 kingdom taken away Mat 23:35-58

    22. AND EXCEPT THOSE DAYS SHOULD BE SHORTENED,
    THERE SHOULD NO FLESH BE SAVED: BUT FOR THE ELECT'S
    SAKE THOSE DAYS SHALL BE SHORTENED.

    Comment: If the calamities of the siege, persecution and war
    did not come to an abrupt end, all the inhabitants of Judea,
    including believers who had escaped to other regions would be
    destroyed. But for the sake of the elect. Elect = those chosen to
    salvation through sanctification of spirit and belief in the truth.
    (I Peter 1:2) those days leading to the fall of Jerusalem would
    be reduced. Titus himself, Josephus tells us, contrary to his
    original intention, pressed the siege and took the city by storm
    shortening the the time originally planned to reduce the city by
    continuing the famine.

  • Brother of the Hawk
    Brother of the Hawk

    *Lost*- Great topic- Super fantastic with your research, NE & I are proud of you.

    Vanderhoven7: You absolutely nailed it! Great job! On 2 or 3 other posts, I have asked the question for ANYBODY to show me in the bible where Jesus said his words would have dual fulfilment [our day] as JW's teach. So far, this question has gone unanswered and you know why. I very much appeciate you taking the time to look up the Greek wording and meanings for 'generation' this is missed many times by people researching. Some words int he Greek language can have 3-4 different meanings, the WTBT$ will take the meaning that best suits their ideology.

    Here is some more food for thought. Scholar's claim that Thomas' Gospel was the first one written.

    Gospel of Thomas vs 51-52:

    (51) His disciples said to him, "When will the repose of the dead come about, and when will the new world come?"
    He said to them, "What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it."

    (52) His disciples said to him, "Twenty-four prophets spoke in Israel, and all of them spoke in you."
    He said to them, "You have omitted the one living in your presence and have spoken (only) of the dead."

    Link if anyone wants to read it for themselves: http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html

    Affectionately Brother of the Hawk [ I will surrender my mind no more, forever]

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    John, Paul and others from the 1st Century were never to die. So 'THIS GENERATION" never did pass away before Christ arrived in 1992.

    The idea that "this generation" would mean everyone would die within the usual timeframe contradicts scripture. Ultimately, the Bible is true. Jesus was simply saying some from his time would never die. He was not saying he would return before the last person from that generation passed away within 80-100 years.

  • Bobcat
    Bobcat

    VanderHoven:

    I really appreciate your 2 or 3 posts above. Very good synopsis.

    Take Care

  • Xanthippe
    Xanthippe

    People have spent 2000 years debating the meaning of these words, thousands of books have been written about them. We could have brought 'paradise' to the earth ourselves in all that time and with all that expended energy. Fed the hungry, housed the homeless, forged peace treaties between warring nations. Let's stop worrying about what this ancient book was on about and get this planet sorted, pleeease. Daddy isn't coming to help us, we must do it ourselves.

  • *lost*
    *lost*

    BOH - thanks for your help, hi to NE x

    Vander, Bobcat and others who have contributed positively

    Xanthippe - exactly right. You hit the nail on the head and without realising it you have solved the puzzle.

    We must do it ourselves - is exactly right. further study and research enlightens one to this information. It is the whole meaning and reason of it all.

    It's the 'why's' 'what fors' and 'when' and 'where' we are primarily concerned with.

    We are researching an ancient book and an ancient civilisation/culture to find out WHY people believe/do not believe certain aspects of said book/culture.

    This is what it means to study, research, educate oneself. We are searching for answers, quite simply. Whether one believes or not is irrelevent. Being knowledgable on a subject one professes to know of is another matter entirely.

    By discussing the subject with each other we learn, we can correct faulty teachings and change our pre-conceptions.

    regards.

    lost.

    ps - keep it coming guys, every little bit helps. much appreciated.

    edited to add; I posted topic - Rutherfords Bible Creation Drama, photo slides, take a look. Amazing piece of work.

  • cofty
    cofty

    I agree with your comments Vanderhoven but lets not ignore the rest of the chapter...

    “Immediately after the distress of those days

    “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

    30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

    Jesus was a false prophet.

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