Ripping a person’s faith away, a heavy responsibility?

by Seraphim23 207 Replies latest jw friends

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  Scully

  JWs have no such qualms when they undermine the faith of the people they recruit into their cult. In fact, they do it so subtly that the person is barely aware of them chipping away at beliefs once held.

  They start with the traveller/map analogy. Then they teach you that God has a name, just like you and I do, and that their religion kept that knowledge from them. They plant seeds of doubt and capitalize on those doubts.

  Yes, it ought to be a heavy responsibility, because of the potential to create rifts in the very fibre of family units. They've turned wives against husbands, children against parents and grand parents, destroyed perfectly good friendships. They've separated children from grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins. They've convinced people to sacrifice their lives in a medical emergency, to allow their parents, spouse and children to die for lack of blood transfusions.

  They will destroy you if - once you drink the Kool-Aid -you try to leave. They'll turn your family against you; loyalty to the cult is #1.

  Given all those basic facts, I don't feel the slightest bit of guilt in undermining anything the JWs teach - they've been doing this sort of things to families around the world for over 100 years. It's about time we used the knowledge and resources at our disposal to fight the cult-scourge.
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  still thinking

  How could a poster on an internet forum destroy someone's faith?

  Exactly! Take responsibility for your own actions and choices. It's your faith...you decide whether you believe or not. And if you stop believing...that is YOUR decision, based on information you decided was worth considering.

  No one can destroy someone elses faith. Just more blaming on behalf of those poor defensless christians who can't even protect their own faith in their own mind. They have to blame someone else for their lack of being able to maintain it.

  To destroy someones faith IS a heavy responsibility, and can give them all kinds of problems, hence it needs to be done sensitively and slowly, and the judgement needs to be carefully made as to whether it should be done at all.

  I'm not interested in destroying someone elses faith. I don't walk up to random people and start questioning their faith. I only discuss it with people who want to discuss it. So I don't need to think about trying to do it sensitively or slowly or using my judgement. If THEY choose to have a discussion about god with me...that is up to them. Their faith is THEIR problem. Not mine. And I am not responsible for them gaining or loosing faith. It's theirs to do with as they wish.
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  Phizzy

  My comment, in bold above in Still Thinking's post, was made because I have personal experience of the effect that a sudden shattering of faith, with no back up and support afterward, can have on a person suffering from suicidal depression.

  Though I sympathise in a general way with the sentiment of your last paragraph ST, I would still urge that if you can it is best to be sensible to the needs of the individual, if known to you.

  For a Born-in the effect of losing faith,religion, support group, and often Family, results quite often in a form of PTSD, not to be dismissed as of no account.

  Having said that, I do believe that JW's who I generally come in to contact with are fair game to have their faith thoroughly challenged, but with the very Elderly or the vulnerable I may back off from dropping bombshells and just introduce an irritating bit of Cognitive Dissonance in to their mind.
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  GromitSK

  I'm with EP on this insofar as I don't get how a post on the Internet can 'destroy a person's faith'. Unless that is, it includes facts which show that faith is based on a false premise. This is surely simply reality intruding though isn't it?

  I can see a few being uncomfortable when questions are raised about why they believe as they, do but I don't think this forum is some kind of faith-based support group so it is bound to happen. In fact, such questioning should really refine a person's beliefs.

  I can see problems arise for a number of reasons, amongst which:

  1) sometimes the person challenging has access to more information than the believer. This can mean the believer 'loses' the argument, but doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong - it means more research is needed if the debate is to continue;

  2) the way the challenger is presenting the information makes it difficult for the believer to accept and integrate into their thinking. This switches people into a defensive position which may mean that the mind closes and resists the new, conflicting information. Continued pressure may feel like harassment. Learning is difficult from this position. The trick is to try to avoid causing/succumbing to this defensive switch, if possible.

  3) the challenger is convinced that their perspective is the 'truth'. Almost the flip side of being a believer and they too are not looking to learn but rather win. It's an ego thing for some. They just have to be right.

  There probably are posters who just get some sort of gratification by humiliating believers but I don't think there are many. I suspect a lot of the conflict and perceived harassment is down to approach and perception rather than a real intention to humiliate and defeat.

  The truth definitely does set people free IMHO but like a medicine, simply forcing it down someone's throat isn't necessarily the best way to administer it, even if it seems clear that the medicine is needed.
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  still thinking

  Though I sympathise in a general way with the sentiment of your last paragraph ST, I would still urge that if you can it is best to be sensible to the needs of the individual, if known to you.

  So again...we are veering away from discussing/debating with people on an internet forum...to those in our personal lives.

  I do not discuss belief with people in my personal life unless they start discussing it with me first, or I know from previous experience they are open to discussing it. Which rarely happens. I do discuss it on internet forums.

  This is why this thread is so confusing. We apply different rules to different situations. People who WANT to discuss their beliefs with atheists on an internet forum are not the same as people who do not like to discuss their beliefs because they are personal and precious to them. This thread keeps slipping into different situations and applying what we say and do here to ALL of them.

  This is why I keep asking, are we talking about discussions/debates ON THIS FORUM or everywhere? People who participate in debates need to know that their opinions and strongly held beliefs WILL be challenged and dissected. It is naive to think they won't.

  As I said before, I do not approach people and challenge their beliefs. I don't do it to my inlaws (who are VERY religious) I don't do it to strangers. I discuss belief on an internet forum designed for this purpose.

  I had very strong faith...I lost it (or more correctly, ditched it). And not lightly. It was my choice to question MYSELF, no one did it for me. I could still be believing if I chose to ignore everything people say, and not explore what evolution REALLY is. And not be honest with myself. But I chose not to do that. Yes, it was a difficult pill to swallow. If you are not confident that you would survive having your belief challenged, don't debate it. Simple. Live in your fantasy world of your own creation.
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  GromitSK

  @ST I don't understand your objection to the quote you include in your post. Sorry if I am being thick.
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  still thinking

  I wasn't objecting...I was pointing out that this thread keeps flip flopping between talking about what people do on this forum..and what people do elsewhere. And when I ask for clairification about WHAT we are actually discussing. I am told it's about people attacking noobies, which I can't say I've seen. And ripping peoples faith away. Which really isn't possible. You have to rip your OWN faith away. No one else can do it for you. And no one here is trying to do that to anyone as far as I'm concerened. The irony is that most atheists would fight for your right to believe what you want...many just think that what you believe is nonsense and will say so, which as far as I am aware has never caused anyone to loose their faith. I don't want to forcibly make anyone stop believing in their imaginary god. That really is THEIR problem at the end of the day.

  Some believers seem to think atheists have an agenda to strip them of their faith. Well I don't. I am simply discussing it because it interests me having been sucked into it for so many years. However, it does often seem that some believers have an agenda to try and convert people...it is their god given mission, they want to save everyone and do the will of their master.

  Just as that person earlier on in this thread pointed out that the best way to preach is without a word. So the agenda is to preach. Should we take offense when we are blatantly being preached to? We could, I mean some people exiting a cult are quite suceptable to the next god delusion that is offered to them, these preachers as messing with vulnerable peoples minds. Many are looking for the 'real truth' about God. Not necessarily THE truth, just another version of what they had, keeping the fundamentals (ie Jesus as their saviour) and rarely completley changing to a different god or holy book all together. Just more of the same with a different spin. But for most people they are VERY transparent in their preaching. So they are not really a threat to many.

  Either way...it makes for interesting debates as long as one party doesn't get all 'persecution complex' at the drop of a hat.
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  GromitSK

  Ah understood :)