The JWs slipped up again with the same Alpha and Omega error from 1978

by booker-t 35 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  mP

  Jeffro:

  You're combining astrology with astronomy. They did both, but what they did know of astronomy doesn't validate their ideas about astrology.

  mP:

  They were the same back then. There was no distinction.

  mP:Dont compare the nonsense in the papers today and give the ancients some credit for understanding time and calendars.

  Jeffro:

  Their astrology was not exactly the same as, but not less nonsensical than, modern astrology.

  mP:

  No it wasnt. I just showed how they used astrology as a calendar. For them the movement of the stars did predict the future. When Sirius appeared it predicted or controlled the fact that the Nile was going to flood very soon. Of course they made many wrong associations between stars and earthly events, but it did help them survive.
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  mP

  Splash:

  Perhaps different guys made up those texts :0. So much for a direct line to God.
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  Jeffro

  They were the same back then. There was no distinction.

  No. They weren't. The definition of the word astrology didn't change somewhere in between. (The word didn't even exist at the time.) What the Babylonians did was a combination of astronomy and astrology, but the two are still separate classifications.

  Astrology is a form of divination about people, and it is based on false premises. Astronomy is the study of celestial phenomena and their interactions.

  Observing and predicting locations of stars and planets is astronomy. Speculating about the alleged 'meaning' of an eclipse or constellation is astrology.

  But aside from semantics, I don't think you're really disagreeing with me in principle anyway.
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  Splash

  Hi Jeffro,

  I see the point you're making.

  The Revelation book takes a single discourse and attributes it to multiple speakers.
  In this instance the Revelation book does indeed describe Jesus as speaking the words in paragraph 15, but identifies this as being different to the Alpha and Omega of paragraph 6.

  Just got to update my other documents now.....

  Splash
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  mP

  Jeffro

  Again you are taking our definitions of the words and applying them to the activities of the anceients. The ancients on the other hand saw the two as connected and the same. We can review many of the greats like Copernicus, Galileo and others and they all did both. Astrology was considered science back then.

  We can see this in Job 32, where the author is using them hand in hand and interchangable.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy

  Astronomy is not to be confused with astrology , the belief system which claims that human affairs are correlated with the positions of celestial objects. Although the two fields share a common origin they are now entirely distinct. [3]

  Notice the "common origin".
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  mP

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernicus

  One of the subjects that Copernicus must have studied was astrology , since it was considered an important part of a medical education. [54] However, unlike most other prominent Renaissance astronomers, he appears never to have practiced or expressed any interest in astrology. [55]

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tycho_brahe

  Tycho's duties included preparing astrological charts and predictions for his patrons on events such as births, weather forecasting, and astrological interpretations of significant astronomical events, such as the supernova of 1572 (sometimes called Tycho's supernova) and the Great Comet of 1577 . [42]

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Kepler

  Following the publication of Mysterium and with the blessing of the Graz school inspectors, Kepler began an ambitious program to extend and elaborate his work. He planned four additional books: one on the stationary aspects of the universe (the Sun and the fixed stars); one on the planets and their motions; one on the physical nature of planets and the formation of geographical features (focused especially on Earth); and one on the effects of the heavens on the Earth, to include atmospheric optics, meteorology and astrology

  I have only shown but a few examples, the links above include many more. Its not easy to see astrology being a synonym for the science of astronomy.
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  mP

  Newton was probably the last man on earth to know everything and he mixes both science and astrology and astronomy.

  Let probably the smartest man ever speak for himself. Was he confused, sure but he discovered by himself many many truths.

  http://web.archive.org/web/20080629021908/http://www.skepticreport.com/predictions/newton.htm

  From times immemorial, astrology has been a determining factor in the decisions and actions of men of all ranks and stations. At the begin of the 17th century, great scientists as Tycho Brahe, Galileo Galilei, Johannes Kepler and Pierre Gassendi – now best remembered for their roles in the development of modern physics and astronomy – all held astrology in high esteem.

  However, at the end of the 17th century, the scientific community had completely turned away from astrology. For some the subject of derision, others preferred to ignore it completely – so, hardly a single word on astrology, either pro or contra, is to be found in the works of scientists as Christiaan Huygens (1629-1695)[2] or Isaac Newton (1642-1727).

  However, in the case of Newton, the astrological literature presents a different view and even claims that Newton was in secret an ardent student of astrology.[3] As evidence the following anecdote is often quoted: when the astronomer Edmond Halley (1656-1742), of comet fame, once spoke depreciatively on the subject of astrology, Newton is said to have berated him with the remark: “Sir Halley, I have studied the matter, you have not!”
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  Rattigan350

  Please don't be critical about the identity of Jesus and Jehovah.

  JWs got it right.

  But with Regard to Rev 22:12, it does not give an identity. However since vs 13 says " I am the Al′pha and the O?me′ga", it is Jehovah speaking

  and " the first and the last, the beginning and the end." would also apply to him too without affecting Jesus.

  Since there is no change between vs 12 and vs 13, vs 12 would also be Jehovah. But the verbage could also refer to Jesus.

  However, since vs 16 says ‘I, Jesus, sent my angel", which would indicate a change in speaker, then vs 12-15 would be Jehovah.

  Why does it matter what the Watchtowers, Awakes and books say? The Bible is not clear on the issue.
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  Splash

  If you read just the bible, you would concluce it was Jesus speaking in the entire section.

  It is only by adding convoluted reasoning to retro-fit the text to a preconceived belief, that it becomes confusing.

  Splash
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  Jeffro

  Again you are taking our definitions of the words and applying them to the activities of the anceients. The ancients on the other hand saw the two as connected and the same. We can review many of the greats like Copernicus, Galileo and others and they all did both. Astrology was considered science back then.

  Your quotes about Copernicus and Tycho demonstrate the point I already made. As I've already stated, and as you've also said here, they - like the Babylonians - did both. That doesn't mean that both are the same thing. In any case, even if you like to consider them to have been the same thing, it remains that the elements that actually were of value were those parts related to astronomy, and not those aspects that were actually astrology.

  We can see this in Job 32, where the author is using them hand in hand and interchangable.

  Um... no.