Do Animals Have Souls? (page 12)

new22day

On a serious note -- when I woke up this morning, my cat was sitting on the couch wearing Mormon underwear. I'm very concerned someone has gotten to him.

Finally-Free

Human have not even began to imitate the myriad ingenious ways the animal kingdom has invented to kill and torture its rivals and even its kith and kin.

I'd give a more detailed reply, but I have an intervention to perform. At this moment some sparrows in my backyard are waterboarding a cat, the wasps are punching a hole in the ozone layer, and an ant colony is trying to raise my taxes while cutting services.

I won't even start on the genocide going on next door.

W

Finkelstein

Do Animals Have Souls?

I don't know , why don't you ask one ?

cofty

Huh? "the tryanny of our genes" what does that even mean?? - new22day

All living things, including humans are vehicles for genes.

Alelles that help its host thrive will get passed on more frequently than those that don't. The increase of particular alleles in a gene pool is evolution.

It was Dawkins who introduced the very powerful metaphor of the "selfish gene". It has often been misunderstood. Of course genes are not actually selfish it is just a metaphor.

Nature is neither moral nor immoral but rather amoral. Animals care not a whit about the rights or wrongs of killing rivals, eating their own offspring or forcing potential mates to copulate. They are simply programmed by the genes that built their bodies, brains and nervous systems to do what has to be done to pass those genes on to the next generation.

The myriad brutal ways that natural selection has discovered to achieve those aims is beyond the wildest fantasies of Hieronymous Bosch. The chances of an animal dying from predation or the actions of parasites almost 100%. This is what I meant when I referred to "the tyranny of our genes". Genes drive its host to win at all costs with no regard for morality.

In some species natural selection has discovered the strategy of cooperation as a means of success. Humans have taken this to a level way beyond any other species.

Our big brains allow us to understand delayed gratification and the benefits of living in harmonious societies. We alone can choose to resist the brute urgings of the genes that drove our ancestors and build a future built on higher ideals.

We can " rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators" - Richard Dawkins.

lost

So are we talking about

Wild animals or

Domestic animals or

All of the animal kingdom combined ?

AndDontCallMeShirley

Another question: Since Mormons (the OP being one) believe all life began first in Heaven, then becomes a physical form on earth, how do they explain the existence of evil/violence/destructive behavior ?

Seems to me, under that argument, evil would logically be an inherent design characteristic (read: flaw) of all creatures.

Or, does god's "get out of jail free card", free will, apply to animals too?

Cofty: Nobody has yet defined soul

You've made great points cofty, but defining soul is not even necessary, as the OP began the topic by saying he didn't expect answers based on irrefutable proof or logic. Wild speculation, fantasizing, opinions and pie-in-the-sky answers were all he was looking for.

Apparently, photographs of fluffy cats are all the 'proof' needed to make any assertion you want to, then proclaim it "fact".

Cold Steel

I think this discussion has gotten a little bit out of control. First, it has NOTHING to do with Mormonism. Just because I happen to be one doesn't mean a thing. It doesn't mean I'm trying to convert anyone to my beliefs (since I've believed animals have spirits long before I was a Mormon).

It also doesn't mean that animals or human have spirits, souls, whatever you want to call it. Originally, I was going to title this thread, "Do YOU Believe Animals Have Spirits?" and subsequently decided to delete the words "YOU" and "Believe" for clarity and brevity. I also intended for the thread to be lighter in nature and not so datgum dogmatic.

Who among us can definitively say whether animals or humans have spirits, anyway? There's no way to prove it scientifically or theologically. I just wanted your opinions. Someone asked me what Mormon beliefs were regarding the matter and I replied; however, as someone else pointed out, it's completely moot as the correctness of Mormonism means very little in a discussion of non-Mormons. Quoting Mormon scripture or Mormon authorities would gain me nothing, which is to say that our opinions and views have no more merit than anyone elses.

I have an evangelical friend who believes that while humans have spirits, animals were created for man's use, to be used as companions, transportation, defense and food. After we're resurrected, humans will have no need of these things, and so they will blink out and we'll get over it as we keep developing.

Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in spirits, but they believe in a "soul" -- that is, intelligence and self-awareness. When we die, it's like flipping off a light switch. Later, Jehovah God will switch back on all the lights in a process they call resurrection. But he won't turn on the lights of animals. With the wicked, he will flip on their lights, judge them and flip them off again.

Then there are my atheist friends who declare that neither animals nor humans have "souls" or spirits. They point out there's no evidence at all that anyone or anything has a spirit, and further, that when people or animals die, there is no change in a body's weight. That said, just a few years ago, no one really was able to comprehend quantum physics. Scientists have been able to create anti-matter and have found certain particles that can exist simultaneously in different "universes" or deminsions. When I was born in 1953, none of this was on the table. And dark matter also was unheard of. So just because scientists have no evidence NOW of spirits doesn't prove anything. Of course the burden of proof is upon believers, not science, and is a matter of faith.

Qcmbr

Evil is the consequence of choice. This life is a test to see who can use that choice and choose good over evil. No good having a god (God's gift to the faithful) who is evil. So this life weeds out those who are unable to avoid temptation and gives them the best reward their behaviour allows. Only a few get to become Gods.

AndDontCallMeShirley

Cold Steel: First, it has NOTHING to do with Mormonism

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Sure it does CS! You made that clear on the first page.

Originally, I was going to title this thread, "Do YOU Believe Animals Have Spirits?"

Yeah, that would've made for a much more lucid discussion.

Band on the Run

So Witnesses believe that what normal people refer to as psyche or ego is sleeping in this life. Nonsense.

C.S. Lewis, the famous Christian apologist, suggested that just as humans have heavenly hope through Christ, dogs might through the ministrations of their owner. Wild dogs would not.

How can it be paradise or heaven without the family dogs? God can keep that heaven. I will go to hell.

Do Animals Have Souls?

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