What I've been wanting to say about doubt and faith

by jgnat 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Oubliette

  jgnat, very thought provoking.

  My favorite part was this:

  Abolish all doubt, and what's left is not faith, but absolute heartless conviction. You're certain that you possess the truth--inevitably offered with an implied upper case "T"--and this certainty quickly devolves into dogmatism and righteousness, by which I mean a demonstrative, overweening pride in being so very right. In short, the arrogance of fundamentalism. - ( 6:56")

  It perfectly describes the WT Leaderships attitude.

  Thanks for sharing!
• 

  tec

  I understand what i believe she is talking against... but it seems to me that this is more a matter of blind faith that she is speaking against.

  Questioning or examining or 'testing' the details or foundation of one's faith, to be sure that the foundation is sure, is not necessarily doubt. It is simply testing, so that we can be sure. Not in ourselves, not to be 'right' in and of ourselves. But to be sure that we have placed our faith in the One who IS true and we can provide a defense for that One and our faith in Him.

  But if any man, or leadership, or religion tells a person that they cannot question or examine or test them... then that is a big red flag, since even in what is written, men are told to test the inspired expressions, to be sure that they emanate from God.

  I didn't get to watch the whole thing; it kept cutting out around ten minutes. Her example as to the Prophet Muhammad though... if true... then that is not the man reacting in doubt of his faith or God. If he was doubting his faith or God, he would not have reacted in line with his faith, thinking that perhaps an evil spirit (djinn) had taken hold of him.

  If true, his reaction was one of fear, not doubt... and that fear perhaps being based upon what his religion teaches, and men likely taught at the time.

  Same with the wts teaching that evil spirits can possess and speak to people... but that the Spirit of Christ cannot.

  Naturally, if one is taught such things, it is not surprising that some people would first feel fear, because man has taught him to be afraid, that it will be something bad.

  But doubt is not essential to faith... it is the opposite of faith. These two things do not go hand in hand.

  Christ said...

  "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt...'

  Doubt can impede one from exercising faith. From belieiving what is heard, and 'doing' according to what is heard. It does matter, however, who or what you have placed your faith IN. So that testing and questioning to be sure that something is or is not true... is not a problem, but is something that we are told TO do.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  jgnat

  I see you found my thread, tec/tammy. This is not the first time you’ve redefined terms to maintain your confidence. Take evidence, for instance. You are satisfied that your internal experience is enough for you, and you continue to try and convince others that it should be enough for them. Internal experience, by definition of all that is scientific, is untestable and therefore not evidence.

  Examining, questioning and testing our faith is the essence of doubt.

  Here’s two examples of where you are putting complete confidence in scripture (though you do not treat all the “Word of God” as inviolate).

  “even in what is written, men are told to test the inspired expressions, to be sure that they emanate from God.” (1 John 4:1)

  "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt...' (Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:23)

  Why do you trust these scriptures above others?

  The two greek words for “doubt not”:

  dee-ak-ree'-no

  From G1223 and G2919; to separate thoroughly, that is, (literally and reflexively) to withdraw from, or (by implication) oppose; figuratively to discriminate (by implication decide), or (reflexively) hesitate: - contend, make (to) differ (-ence), discern, doubt, judge, be partial, stagger, waver.

  may

  A primary particle of qualified negation (whereas G3756 expresses an absolute denial); (adverbially) not, (conjugationally) lest; also (as interrogitive implying a negative answer [whereas G3756 expects an affirmative one]); whether: - any, but, (that), X forbear, + God forbid, + lack, lest, neither, never, no (X wise in), none, nor, [can-] not, nothing, that not, un [-taken], without. Often used in compounds in substantially the same relations. See also G3362, G3363, G3364, G3372, G3373, G3375, G3378.

  I’d take this as “never waver”. But then again, even the great heroes and heroines of the bible wavered. John the Baptist, “Is this the one, or is there another?” Abraham, wondering if his seed would pass on. David cried out in many psalms wondering if his God had abandoned him. They wavered. They nevertheless did great things for God.

  If you are having trouble with the youtube link, try this:

  http://blog.ted.com/2013/06/12/the-doubt-essential-to-faith-lesley-hazleton-at-tedglobal-2013/
• 

  gorgia2

  Thanks jgnat for the video. I don't want to ever not feel doubt; if I ever felt convinced I knew the secrets of the universe I'm sure it'd be from a padded room.

  gorgia
• 

  tec

  I see you found my thread, tec/tammy. This is not the first time you’ve redefined terms to maintain your confidence.

  I'm not sure that I redefined any term here.

  People of faith may experience moments of doubt... but that does not make doubt essential to faith.

  Take evidence, for instance. You are satisfied that your internal experience is enough for you, and you continue to try and convince others that it should be enough for them. Internal experience, by definition of all that is scientific, is untestable and therefore not evidence.

  There are many different types of evidence. I am not making that up out of the blue. Whether one type of evidence is enough to convince someone or not is up to them. I have never said that all evidence has the same merit. I have never said that I have scientific proof of anything. Just the opposite. Nor have I said that anyone should put confidence in what is my personal experience. I just share it; it is part of my testimony to Christ.

  What others do with that is up to them.

  Examining, questioning and testing our faith is the essence of doubt.

  Muhammad did not doubt Allah, according to that story. He doubted something that he heard (did not have faith in it), until whatever it was that convinced him otherwise came... and then he could put faith in what he heard. So yes, he did doubt the source of what he heard, at first. Later, once he knew who that source was, he put faith in what he heard... and no longer doubted.

  Here’s two examples of where you are putting complete confidence in scripture (though you do not treat all the “Word of God” as inviolate).

  I'm actually not. The first two words show that:

  “even in what is written, men are told to test the inspired expressions, to be sure that they emanate from God.” (1 John 4:1)

  'Even in'... meaning there is another source, and He is the one I put my confidence in on this matter. This is what He taught ME to do... before I even knew the meaning of this verse. I believed Him when He told me to do that, and here it also is in what is written.

  "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt...' (Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:23)

  I trust Christ over this woman in the video (what does she know... what do I know for that matter?), and especially as what he said here is also backed up by what others are written to have said, like Paul, in his definition of faith. (now faith is the confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see) As well as by the example, that in places without faith, Christ did not do many miracles.

  So I pointed that verse out... to show that it is not in tune with what Christ is recorded to have said.

  Why do you trust these scriptures above others?

  Sorry, got ahead of myself. Hopefully I have answered.

  I’d take this as “never waver”.

  Okay. Though we might waver for reasons other than doubt... such as fear of what bodily harm might come our way.

  But then again, even the great heroes and heroines of the bible wavered. John the Baptist, “Is this the one, or is there another?” Abraham, wondering if his seed would pass on. David cried out in many psalms wondering if his God had abandoned him. They wavered. They nevertheless did great things for God.

  These ones never doubted that God existed.

  But taking John the Baptist... he questioned before putting faith in Christ as the One who was to come, to be sure he was putting his faith in the truth. He never doubted God that One was coming. THEN He put faith in Him and did not doubt.

  Some may hear and not doubt at all... like Peter and the apostles, who came to Chirst, enabled by God. Some question and test first... and perhaps then put faith in Him, based on the truth/evidence/answers that they have been given.

  They did not constantly doubt God, no matter how many times he proved to be true, and call that a good or essential thing to faith.

  Now... testing what OTHERS share or say is essential... so as not to put our faith in men. Which includes checking ones religion... is one's faith in men, or in Christ (the only foundation that IS sure).

  If you are having trouble with the youtube link, try this:

  I did try going straight to the site, but it keeps kicking me out after ten minutes. I am wondering if that is because I do not subscribe to Tedtv?

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  jgnat

  You protest my statements before I get halfway through them. You've broken up my train of thought and frankly, I am not inclined to parse your protests any further.

  In summary, your evidence is not anyone else's evidence. You have concluded that doubt is bad so it can't ever be a good thing. I don't buy your claim of free choice to "accept" your testimony. Failure to accept it comes at a steep price, doesn't it? That's the same "free" choice the Jehovah's Witnesses offer.

  I don't subscribe to TedTV and I can view the video both on Youtube and on Ted just fine. I think it must have something to do with your internet subscription.

  Here's a version with a transcript.

  http://monotheismmythologymore.blogspot.ca/2013/06/lesley-hazleton-doubt-essential-to-faith.html
• 

  NeverKnew

  Oubliette says:

  Abolish all doubt, and what's left is not faith, but absolute heartless conviction. You're certain that you possess the truth--inevitably offered with an implied upper case "T"--and this certainty quickly devolves into dogmatism and righteousness, by which I mean a demonstrative, overweening pride in being so very right. In short, the arrogance of fundamentalism. - ( 6:56")

  That was the exact quote that caught my attention! I found her to be a great speaker. Looking at her other videos, her intentions are sincere. I love that.
• 

  tec

  You protest my statements before I get halfway through them. You've broken up my train of thought and frankly, I am not inclined to parse your protests any further.

  I am just trying not to miss anything, and to be accurate. I dont' mean to break up your train of thought.

  In summary, your evidence is not anyone else's evidence.

  Of course.

  You have concluded that doubt is bad so it can't ever be a good thing.

  No, not at all. Doubt can DEFINITELY be a good thing... doubting someone who is lying to you for instance. Doubting so as not to be blindly led. Doubting so as not to be taken advantage of by someone whose intentions are bad.

  But this woman is saying (from what I understand) that not doubting is a bad thing. That being sure is a bad thing.

  And that is not true.

  I don't buy your claim of free choice to "accept" your testimony. Failure to accept it comes at a steep price, doesn't it?

  I have never said something like that. So I am confused as to what steep price you would be referring to here?

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  jgnat

  You are an example, tec, of how confidence - without doubt - leads to excess.

  "Nor have I said that anyone should put confidence in what is my personal experience. I just share it; it is part of my testimony to Christ. What others do with that is up to them."

  What happens to those who reject Christ?
• 

  tec

  What happens to those who reject Christ?

  That is not something that I could say, and I think it depends on many variables.

  I mean, if someone rejects Christ (which is not the same as rejecting the false image that some have presented of him... a false christ), I'm not sure how they could be among those who are his brothers.

  BUT... there are also those who are invited into the kingdom, those who Christ knows by what they have done... even though they do not know Him.

  I mean, I understand what you are saying. I have felt that in the past also, and asked myself this: "If I don't accept what this person is saying, and they are from God, what is wrong with me that I am rejecting God... but if I do accept what this person is saying, and they are not from God, then what is wrong with me that I am so easily fooled AGAIN." I spent some time agonizing over that. But my Lord said to me (and I did not recognize that he spoke to me... at the time i did not know that was possible... I thought it just... "came"... to me), NOT to worry about the person doing the sharing or the claim that it came from Him. Not to pay any attention to that AT ALL. HE told me to simply test WHAT this person was sharing.... to see if it could be from Him or not.

  Some things I did not know about... but they were not against love or Christ... so I just set them aside for such a time as He might help me to understand the truth in them, or not.

  So don't look at me either, don't worry about me at all. I am no one; and I am not the Teacher. Test anything I share, if something in it helps you to see something in a new light, great... but accept or not as you believe in accordance with what Christ taught and teaches. Listen to Him.

  Even the early disciples and apostles disagreed on some matters... that did not mean that they were rejecting Christ if they rejected something that one of them shared. Perhaps there were misunderstandings or miscommunication, or bias from their own ideas or previous belief system. Perhaps some could not yet bear what others had been given to share.

  Peace,

  tammy