"You knew what the consequences were when YOU decided to leave The Truth. This is YOUR decision and the outcome is YOUR responsibility."

by nicolaou 55 Replies latest social family

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  cognisonance

  I enjoyed this thread, as I have heard that line before and it always burned me up inside. The blame is being put on us. By their logic, our loved ones too made a decision and have responsibility. After all they signed up for this religion too, which should mean it has the consequences of having to shun anyone that leaves, even a family member, or risk loosing their "relationship with god" or getting kicked out too.

  I know some family and friends of mine who struggle with shunning me, doing it becuase they think it's the "right thing to do" or is required of them, but I can tell they really don't want to have to do it. They are just as "free" to not shun me as I was to leave. In the end, it's much easier to just blame me instead and say this is all my fault, not see that the problem is with the religion.
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  Simon

  No, they constantly change the rules but when they do you don't get chance to cancel the contract (that they never explained to a child anyway).
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  Narcissistic Supply

  >>>Post a reply to '"You knew what the consequences were when YOU decided to leave The Truth. This is YOUR decision and the outcome is YOUR responsibility."<<<<

  Begs the question.
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  Phizzy

  Exactly Narc, a fallacy that is truly "petitio principii" which is the technical term for "begging the question", is one where the original proposal or assertion does fit the conclusion reached, but of course there is no proof that the original assertion is true.

  It is a very close relative of Circular Reasoning, another fallacy beloved of JW's.

  As has been shown above, the contention "You knew ........" is false, so any conclusions reached from it are false.

  JW's and sound reasoning do not belong in the same sentence.
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  rawe

  Hi Nicolaou,

  You knew what the consequences where when YOU decided to leave The Truth. This is YOUR decision and the outcome is YOUR responsibility.

  Dear Witness Friend,

  To a large extent I agree with that. I might add that severing as an elder gave me even better insight into what may happen when I left the faith. The only serious objection I have with this statement is the phrase "The Truth", which is in reality merely a euphemism for "the faith." Respect for what is true and rejection of what is false, was a key component of why I left the faith.

  Did I know the potential consequences? Absolutely -- in enough detail I was able to predict them.

  Did I decide to leave the faith? Absolutely. It was my decision to leave. Nothing other than than a love for truth and rejection of falsehood caused me to leave.

  Must I accept responsibility for the consequences? Yes, I agree with that too.

  However, accepting the responsibility of decisions we personally make is not one and the same as declaring the consequences just and righteous. When young black students and some of their white friends purposefully sat at white-only counters and asked to be served, some were yelled at, spit upon and even beaten up. Their knowledge that such consequences might await them, did not justify the consequence itself. Or to use a Biblical example, when Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refused to bow down and worship the image of gold, they took responsibility for their action, but in so doing showed the consequence itself to be wrong and immoral.

  But what about you? Are YOU making decisions and willing to accept consequences? In real truth, isn't it the case a "decision" to shun is not something individual Witnesses are making, but instead more of a matter of being obedient -- to bow down to the image of gold as it were? That the shun spigot can be turned and and off at will by the men leading the organization? Do not the facts and truth of history show this? At one moment, non-baptized, but designated "disapproved associates" were shunned, but after a single Watchtower lesson, they were not?

  Cheers,

  -Randy
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  tec

  Randy, that was an excellent post!

  Agreed with all, and well said.

  Peace to you,

  tammy
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  Giordano

  Jesus was who we were supposed to follow........ the Bible (NT) is the outline for Christianity. When did Jesus get baptized? As early as 12? When he turned 16? Surely at age 21?

  Jesus waited until he was freaking 30!!

  Is their any mention of 12 year olds or Teen's getting Baptized in the NT? I honestly don't know.
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  nicolaou

  Randy, I'm struggling to pin down my reasons but your post really pissed me off.

  Must I accept responsibility for the consequences? Yes, I agree with that too.

  Bullshit! The abuser takes responsibility for the abuse, NOT the victim or maybe you think that by abandoning the Watchtower and speaking out we've become some slutty tease in a short skirt who was just 'asking for it'?!

  First impressions? A pompous, self-vindicating post from a former Elder who still doesn't get it!

  At one moment, non-baptized, but designated "disapproved associates" were shunned, but after a single Watchtower lesson, they were not?

  That's a nerve you DON'T want to strike with me . . . Me and My Brother
  
  I get that knowing the consequences of our actions is not the same as accepting the consequences as just but don't ever dump the "responsibilty for the consequences" (shunning, broken hearts) on the victims again.

  Not unless you grow the balls to say it to my face.

  Nic'
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  Separation of Powers

  Nicolaou It is difficult for any reasoning person to expect that a youngster or teenager would EVER be able to understand the ramifications of such a weighty decision. I recall one of my best friend's daughters got baptized at an assembly. She was probably 13. I asked her why? she stated, "cause I love Jehovah and cause my friend and I wanted to do it together." Afterwards, she asked if they could go celebrate by getting pizza. Fast forward 3 years, she doesn't want to be a Witness. She wants to go to college and be a "normal" person. As for Randy's post, it is easily assumed that when you join a club, the onus is on you to know what that entails. But, when it comes to young people, minors if you prefer, the onus is on the parent. My kid can't get swimming lessons without my consent. My kid can't join the BoyScouts without my consent. My kid can't go to Bible camp without my consent. For a parent to pressure his kid toward baptism when that kid can't even keep his room clean is irresponsible. Some might say, "yeah, but it serves as a protection." No, what serves as a protection is being a GOOD PARENT. We don't allow young people to join the military because it is, at times, a life and death decision. Young people makes hasty decisions. They are typically easily swayed. They want to impress and satisfy others, particularly their parents. They do not, typically, understand the weight or responsibility. This applies to baptism as well. The JWs condemn the Catholic Church for infant baptism, then practice a form of it themselves. Just a thought, SOP
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  AnnOMaly

  Reminds me of the Airplane! skit:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn0WdJx-Wkw