Musings about different types of atheist!

by Seraphim23 304 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  DJS

  Seraphim,

  I've read and re-read your initial post and I don't have a clue what you are trying to say or what type of reponse that you are seeking. And Cofty is right; we have beat this thing to death; the only ones possibly benefitting would be the lurkers. I also don't like: a. repeating myself; and b. trying to argue (I won't all it debate because few on this site understand the term) with people who are entrenched in their viewpoint. As for your comments Latinthunder. I will ignore them lest I say something like "have you been smoking crack," which I won't say. Geesh Latinthunder. I mean, good grief.

  I struggled with ID and Abiogenesis myself in my sojoun from hardcore theist to non-theist, as I've noted. But the case against a god, especially as Adamah and Cofty point out, anywhere akin to the bible god is the best case against theism I can think of. If he/she/it exists, they are irrelevant (I stole that from Cofty). And unless or until god reveals herself in something like a Holloywood marvel comics movie, maybe in Times Square in support of the super heroes, I am unmoved about someone's 'belief.' I am annoyed with it when it comes to debating, as it doesn't belong. Take that outside and play with it. So we can bash each other with the apparent rational arguments theists have (ID, abiogensis, etc.) and the apparent arguments non-theists have (too numerous to count) all day long.

  I'm not playing anymore. It's tic/tac/toe. Once you figure out the game there are no winners.
• 

  Qcmbr

  This kind of OP is why I and many others are willing to stand up to ignorance and faith based manipulation.This kind of divisive stupidity is what happens when material evidence is missing. The moment some godlike being makes material contact the atheist and rational religionist will alike , accept the new information. Faith is the casualty when material evidence appears. Faith leads to all sorts of flightsof fancy when evidence is missing. As an atheist I happily make the probablistic assertion that of themillions of demonstrably evidence free gods yours will also be simply supported by your imaginative faith. Every christian fails the test every time every day. Pretty conclusive. In the meantime ye faithful keep on with the good fight, Zeus will surely bless your endeavours.
• 

  Xanthippe

  So we can bash each other with the apparent rational arguments theists have (ID, abiogensis, etc.) and the apparent arguments non-theists have (too numerous to count) all day long.

  I have observed that the ones who do bash one another all day long do get a reaction and calm rational remarks often don't. Perhaps people are just bored and lonely and want someone to talk to for hours and hours and hours......
• 

  adamah

  Qcmbr said-

  This kind of OP is why I and many others are willing to stand up to ignorance and faith based manipulation.

  Yeah, but just to play Seraphim's advocate, I DO see evidence of Seraphim attempting to understand why atheists see as they do, maybe even struggling to process it. In fact, there's clearly evidence of logic at work in his arguments (however questionable the string of premises may be!), such that he's likely trying to just make sense of it all.

  It's easy to forget what it's like to be in that state of questioning everything, and I for one am willing to cut him some slack in that regard (until he proves to be a hopeless case, LOL!).

  Adam
• 

  cofty

  Been through all of these issues with Seraphim in detail many times before you signed up Adam, but feel free if you have the energy.
• 

  snare&racket

  Seraphim,

  There is no need for so much speculation, i even in a materialistic world view, you want your DNA material to survive.

  I think you are attempting to add mystery to the concepts of good and bad that simply do not exist.

  To be alive is good, we fear death, this is not an accident we need this to pass on our genetic material and to live on through it, our DNA's survival and variation depeneds on it. The more varied DNA is the more probable it can survive it's ever changing enviroment.

  As for the words good and bad, we could say 'x' and'y' where x = beneficial to DNA replication and y = detremental to DNA replication, the words are irrelevant really.

  You may say that this is far removed from the moral good and bad of life today, but everything from stealing, murder, rape, child abuse etc relates to personal survival and DNA prolongation and breeding and therefor either X or Y (good or bad)

  It is quite a shock to see how commanded by DNA and it's hunger for survival we are, yet without it we would not appreciate LIFE, the complex mechanism DNA has progressively evolved to ensure its survival hence the Dawkins term "The Selfish Gene"

  We want to live because we have evolved that desire, without that desire we would not survive...by this measure we judge what is harmful or beneficial to our survival (ultimatley our DNA survival) and therefore judge it ...."good" or "bad"

  Animals live by similar codes, we are not unique in demanding justice, seeking equality, feeling joy and regret... anyone with a dog will recognise all of this in that one godless, materialistic animal alone.

  So the whole 'in an atheist/materialist world of no god, there is no good or bad' is simply incorrect and uninformed. No offence... I am uninformed on as many things as anyone else, I simply find this topic very interesting.

  Snare x
• 

  Qcmbr

  I despair at the mental waste consumed by religion, my own former cerebral buffoonery hurts most keenly. I cast about trying to understand how we, I ,can be functionally capable, generally rational beings and yet fall so utterly under the sway of irrational, faith engorged fantasy worlds. What is this capacity we have to be so convinced by utter tosh that we will create entire societies devoted to a myth and more disturbing, create perceptually convoncong internal monologues with invisible friends. What an amazing world this will be when we can stop wasting time on arguing over which magic is bestest. In the meantime the longer the debate continues the more faith can be exposed as a less effective way to gain knowledge. Apols for terse structure and fat fingers . crappy phone.
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  DJS

  A chlld raised from birth, by ethical atheists, who has no external theist influences while growing up would more often than not result in an ethical (moral) person. And there is already very good data that suggests atheists are more "moral" than theists (don't want to argue, look it up here or Google it). The source of the data has been provided on this site previously. So the only argument available to theists given these two probabilities is that a 'god' coded such in the DNA. But the bible/god/jesus belief system regarding morals and ethical behavior wouldn't factor in this at all. You simply don't need god/jesus/bible to be a good person.

  DNA is not static; it is dynamic. By natural selection we can change the DNA course. If ethical atheists became the prized 'match,' within a few generations we would see an evolutionary process occur that would, IMHO, be the best thing that ever happed to the human race. It will occur; it has begun. And the field of epigenetics, a rapidly evolving science, suggests DNA is even more fluidly and rapidly changed. I would suggest all lurkers to Google epigenetics. Fascinating stuff.

  As I have said before, the potential tied up in our DNA is enormous. Religion and theism are holding us back.
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  cofty

  We are only partially rational beings, some are less rational than others. Intelligent people can hold rational beliefs and irrational beliefs simultaneously.

  We find it easy to argue against everyday superstitions like an aversion to the number 13 etc. When challenged about it, very few people would try to seriously defend those sort of superstitions. They tend to readily accept that they hold such ideas for irrational reasons.

  Religious faith is given a special status. Believers try to fnd rational explanations for their irrational religious beliefs. If only people would accept that religious faith is identical to any other superstition.
• 

  Qcmbr

  Until, it becomes illegal to teach faith as fact to children I suspect religions that promote irresponsible , large families ( guilty as charged) will continually outgrow non-religious families. Modern atheism needs to show not only that it is a more rational worldview but ultimately a more biologically successful one. Sam Harris is making great inroads into the moral debate on the side of rational, scientific thinking. We need more people to explain why living life based on a lie, no matter how fluffy and spiritual, is socially sub optimal.