My understanding of current physics is that the universe and everything in it will eventually give way to complete entropy and decay. All values and concepts and thoughts and scientific understandings and so on will mean precisely nothing. So if such things are wedded to the universe and the universe only, without any metaphysical underpinning and that such values and knowledge are lost forever, what do they matter? At most they have relative value for the now, but the now is vanity because of the future coming darkness. It will be as though such things never were. What is the percentage that limited existence has when compared to infinity of non being? I think the answer is zero percent. Something to think about when getting hot and bothered about those who think there is more to existence.
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 304 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
snare&racket
SERAPHIM
We know our car will end up on the scrap heap but do you not appreciate it now? Your logic is flawed, are you not bothering to read our replies?
We are programmed to want to live and therefore care about what benefits us or not, without that desire our DNA would not survive. The fact we have come to an undertanding of the universe and its potential future does not remove that desire to breathe another day! It is not that complex, there is no need to reapeat your question, it has been answered several times now.
If you don't understand the answer, please specify which part, but don't just repeat the question. It just makes you look silly.
Innate physics are irrelevant, a rock has not got a desire to protect itself. Humans and most animals do. We get rewarded with happy hormones on surviving and get doses of horrid scary hormones when we risk our life, there is no element of choice no matter what you know of the universes demise.
Regarding Religions..... I think about this often....
Humans are an interesting animal....
Our brain is 'lazy' in a way, it is how we are so capable without really being that smart. Our brains rely heavily on pattern recognition, it is far more efficient that doing constant calculations. To cut a long story short this makes us superstitious...if by random chance it rains on the two occasions we sacrifice a goat to Hulk Hogan, for thousands of years we will be building Hulk Shrines ......(and rightly so! Hooooooo !) Look at the pidgeon box superstition experiments and papers, it is interesting stuff. Seeing patterns is how we survived the jungle, animals see patterns where there are none as a trade off, that religion akes advantage of in misintepreted as supernatural events in response to our activity.
To add to this short circuit in our pattern recognition, we also have a herd mentality, tests show that if you place a couple of actor in a room of people told to run to the exit LEFT when the alarm sounds, the actors run RIGHT and most follow. It is safer to be in numbers, and religion certainly plays on that biological trait, let others think for us and follow the crowd.... you will even feel safe following them... ( in the wrong direction).
Our DNA gives us innate fears and desires that helps it survive, BY CHANCE religions play to every one of these genetic desires, promising everlasting life, no death, justice for our good deeds, punishment for those that wrong us...
Groups will always feel safer to humans, the bond created in religion is no accident for sure! Looking back there was huge promotion in the JW's of a family setting, we even called each other siblings "brothers and sisters" under our father, god who's has left 9 window cleaners in Brooklyn to babysit. They were certainly playing on our group/family biological switches.
I am fascinated with evolution and human interaction. I would like to do some research on this next point but I will break it here with you guys :)
Guilt doesn't exist....hear me out.....it is a word and concept created by religion. Guilt as an emotion is simply fear....think about the emotion fear, re-create it in your mind...now think of guilt.... it is the same feeling... Adrenaline takes blood from your peripheries and non essential organs, including the stomach and hence all those feelings, cold clamy peripheries, dry mouth etc.... we feel fear (guilt) afer wronging someone because we fear recompense!
This is not just a made up idea by me, we only have fight, flight or freeze, we have reward and no reward. There is only adrenaline to play with and seretonin to increase dopamine uptake that affects mood happy/sad.
There is no physiology for guilt.... it is a religious concept and they have simply hijacked the flight or flight response. Think back to your first time on an 'apostate' web site, did your adrenaline pump? It was pure fear right?! Thy have hijacked a VERY powerful response.
To be fair religion is not the only enemy in this regard, politics (National socialism) and patriotism etc all take advantage of these human traits. The longer humans live together in communities the better we get an manipulating each other, largely threough evolved means. However what is scary now..... we know the physiology and mechanism behnd how they work, we are now more exposed and vulnerable to the people that KNOW how to control others, motre than ever. Imagine Derren Brown on a marketing board or government panel ! ....... or in a religion !
Snare x
-
cofty
Guilt doesn't exist, it is a word and concept created by religion. Guilt as an emotion is simply fear....
That's an interesting idea, I will have to mull it over.
It would mean that guilt is fear of consequences for when there are no human observers.
Could it be argued then that religious superstition was a valuable thing that has simply outlived its usefulness?
-
Seraphim23
Programs can be carried out without being aware of things. Computers carry out programs all the time but there is no moral bad if one breaks or suffering as they can’t suffer. Plus if a man kills the children of another man, and rapes the women and she has his kids, doesn’t that benefit his DNA? People though can override the dictates of inbuilt desires when they try hard to do so.
-
cofty
doesn’t that benefit his DNA?
That is a very simplistic view of "the selfish gene".
You would benefit from reading Robert Axelrod's paper, "The Evolution of Cooperation"...
His research showed that cooperation is an evolutionary stable strategy.
-
Seraphim23
Indeed your right about that Cofty . I understand as a gay man that procreation of my genes in not evolutions only chosen method to place the interests of DNA first. However my point wasn’t a deep analysis of cooperation. My point was deeper than that.
-
adamah
Seraphim said-
My understanding of current physics is that the universe and everything in it will eventually give way to complete entropy and decay.
You're worried about the heat death of the universe?
Lemme guess: do you not go to see a movie, since you know it will only be over in two hours?
Heck, if more people would quit dicking around wasting time and energy with their fantasy God beliefs, maybe we could start working on ways to overcome more imminent threats to ALL lifeforms on Earth, like ways to detect and divert incoming meteors (like the one that struck Russia earlier this year)? Global climate change?
All values and concepts and thoughts and scientific understandings and so on will mean precisely nothing. So if such things are wedded to the universe and the universe only, without any metaphysical underpinning and that such values and knowledge are lost forever, what do they matter? At most they have relative value for the now, but the now is vanity because of the future coming darkness. It will be as though such things never were. What is the percentage that limited existence has when compared to infinity of non being? I think the answer is zero percent. Something to think about when getting hot and bothered about those who think there is more to existence.
Methinks we have a nihilistic theist looking to atheism, as if it's an excuse for nihilistic tendencies? Stick with your theism, then: Armageddon and religion's concept of Hell has more to offer in the "Gloom and Doom" department than atheism does.
Adam
-
snare&racket
if a man kills the children of another man, and rapes the women and she has his kids, doesn’t that benefit his DNA?
FANTASTIC question... now you are thinking! Think of the animal kingdom where animals DO do that and animals that DON'T.... what is the difference?
Think about it before you read on....
I hope you got there before reading this, but animals that live in packs with interactions don't behave like this. If it was ok within a pack for abuse or violence to exist whether it be you against your neighbour or your neighbour against you it is not to the common good of the DNA.
Even if you are the perpetrator... if it ok for you to kill off the children of someone without recompense then it is ok for someone to come and kill your children without recompense and this is the power behind the evolution of hormones that dictate all of this, getting the balance of hormones that drive all those powerful desires.
Penises are barbed in many animals (includind ours) beneath the main gland (head of the penis) to scrape out other semen of other males from the female. If rape or sex with a partner you had sex with regularly is permitted then you could not protect your DNA. You wouldn't know if your DNA is in the pregnant female. It is not in your interest or the interest of other animals in sexual partnership for rape/ sexual expoitation to take place. So in large pack animals with high sex drives and low birth rates per generation, 'relationships' and protecting your DNA in your chosen partner is vital. You don't want rape or random sexual intercourse with your chosen partner do you? The DNA in you doesnt want to spend it's life through you rearing the offspring of another animals DNA, it isn't personal it is simply not efficient as DNA just wants to replicate and diversify. Told you it was selfish didn't I.....
The key concept behind it came from a mathmatician called John Nash and it is called GAME THEORY, (have you seen beautifu mind?). Basically it is this... in a closed society.... WHAT IS GOOD FOR THE GROUP IS GOOD FOR THE INDIVIDUAL. It applies to many social interactions, the math behind it is largely used to maintain the economy, bt it's principle works in many places and we see it in the social interaction of animals. It is also common sense. If you have an angry pack of animals (all with similar DNA which by chance gives off TOO much testosterone in the males) that are always attacking eachother in the pack, will that pack survive better than a pack that is not so aggressive and constantly wounding eachother? No! Violence, murder, infanticide, stealing, rape etc are not advantageous if permitted in the genes within a pack society because it can harm your DNA just as much.... the ten commandments didn't come from moses, they are NECESSARY in pack interactions.
If you think about the principles behind the things you are asking now, you will probably work out the answer yourself!
Seriously, good question that Seraphim ;) x
People though can override the dictates of inbuilt desires when they try hard to do so... can you give an example?
Every one will have a biological association, be it depression and suicide or killing ones own children to impress a potential mate or for self preservation or due to biological hard wiring that went wrong due to a poor upbringing etc.... Can you think of an example of going against nature that doesnt have a biological motivation?
As for computers I have no idea what you mean, as we have said it is all about the desire to live, there are no morals, simply what is beneficial for our dna or not.... this currently does not at all apply to computers as they have no desire to replicate and diversify nor the means to do so....notice I said yet....
Cofty...interesting hey, go check out (google) the 'pidgeon box superstition experiments' and their role in undrstandinf modern day superstition and religion. Pidgeons in boxes with randomly dropped pellets of food, if by chance they itched their foot on both occasions, they would itch their foot off in an attemot to get food.... etc etc
-
cofty
pidgeon box superstition experiments
Will do thanks.
As a football coach it's fascinating to observe the rituals players have. Prayer is just one more superstitious action that people think will contribute to success.
-
snare&racket
Cofty I was immediatly drawn to this experiment based on the rituals I have seen in sports before an event too, be it football or Valentino Rossi the motorcyclist and his infinite list of things to do before a race lol... he even places all the stickers on his bike and helmet himself due to superstition and insists on the same number on his motorbike with no exception.