cantleave had a valid opinion. Is God like a pencil-pointless?

by KateWild 100 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • adamah
    adamah

    Monseiur said-

    what does the peace symbol above represent that is SO percievable??

    You're kidding, right? I mean, you answered your own question in the words you wrote.

    It's called the 'peace SYMBOL' for a good reason: the circular design with the enclosed bisecting lines IS perceivable (and it's EVEN CALLED a symbol), but the peace SIGN represents the intangible concepts of non-violence, love, harmony, smelly hippies who eat pesticide-free organic veges, smoke dope, Woodstock, etc. I think of late 1960's Summer of Love in S.F. Memories, concepts, and ideas AREN'T preceivable, tanglible, or detectable UNLESS they are communicated (where language and communication relies on symbology in order to transmit ideas).

    Adam

  • prologos
    prologos

    Monsieur, it resembles a Moebius Strip, twisted , never ending surface.

  • tec
    tec

    What Christians like Tammy choose to ignore or fail to understand is that answering prayers is INTERVENTION. If God is not intervening to prevent evil and suffering, neither can he intervene in the form of answering any prayers whatsoever.

    Says who?

    And by whose reasoning?

    Tammy does not ignore or fail to understand that answering prayers is intervention. Of course it is intervention. God DOES intervene. If God did NOT intervene... then He would not have sent Christ. Or prophets. Or the law. Or gifts of the Spirit. He would not have made covenants with anyone. He would not have rescued the Israelites from Egypt, or sent them manna and quail in the desert.

    Obviously God intervenes.

    Your problem is not that God intervenes... it is that God does not intervene in the way that you think He should. With everyone and upon every request... even if there is no faith in Him (revealed by and through Christ).

    But where does that idea come from? Not from God. Not from Christ. Not even from the bible.

    God gave life. Provided a way for anyone and everyone to come home to Him, depsite the choice that Adam made for his offspring (from whom we inherited this flesh with sin and death in it). God gave the planet, the animals on that planet to man, to rule and govern (though man has given that 'rule' to another who continues to transform into an angel of light, but that light is false). He gave these things from love, and He has spoken to all, through love, and by sending prophets, etc, to teach and guide and warn people away from wrongdoing that will harm them as well as others. Man chooses, himself, whether or not to listen to God and/or to love. If man does not listen to the warnings or directions that God gives (as Cain did not listen to God), then the harm or blood that follows is on his own head.

    Beyond the above, however, God is not obligated to do the same things for everyone that He has promised to do for those who belog to Him (by means of a covenant or through the blood of Chirst, those who become His children, and are adopted as Sons) He made promises (such as to Abraham), and covenants (such as with Israel... though Israel continuously reneged on their end of that contract... but the promise to Abraham STILL stands), and now through the promise and covenant that has been created through Christ, who gave his life FOR us so that we could have life, in Him.

    "This is the new covenant in my blood."

    If one is not in that new covenant... if one is not even seeking to be part of it... if one rejects that covenant... then one should not expect the author of that covenant to do anything they ask. God did not answer the prayers of those who called for their offering to be burned in a challenge with Elijah. But He did answer Elijah... who called to Him, the Most Holy One of Israel.

    Christ also said,

    "Whatever you ask for in MY NAME, it will be given to you."

    Now people want to believe that somehow this means anyone can ask in any name, even their own, simply sending their prayers and requests heavenward... that God will hear them and is obligated to answer them. But that is not what God has said; and believing what we want, as opposed to believing what is true (from the Truth who is Christ) does not seem to be getting people any actual answers.

    Nor does it mean that one can ask in the name of some image that man has set up as a golden calf... calling that calf 'jesus' and his father 'jehovah' (as just one example). A golden calf not merely because of the pronunciation of the name... but because of the lies set up around the name. (Jehovah is going to kill all but the wts; Christ wants you to kill and being wars in his name, etc, etc) The wts does not even allow its members to enter INTO that covenant with Christ. Teaches them instead to REFUSE that covenant, and the members of the wts LISTEN... not to Christ... but to their leaders instead. Same with other religions, even though they say that they are from God, and that they follow Christ. They do not. Their adherents follow them... and worship the god that they teach them (like a god who has created a burnign fiery pit of hell where all who are not 'christian' will be tortured for eternity). That 'god' does not exist, and so those who pray to that 'god' receive the only answer a god that does not exist can give. Silence.

    That is not to say that those who belong to Christ are not scattered throughout the world, including within various religions/denominations, having been misled by the false light (or born into it, so that their parents gave them into the care of the false light, themselves decieved as well). Otherwise He would not be calling to THEM, "Come out of her, MY PEOPLE!"

    ***

    As to suffering... those who know Him and belong to Him... know also that in this world, they will have suffering. Sin and death are part of these vessels. And this is world is under the control of the evil one. Not because God gave the adversary that control. But because man gives him that control.

    I mean, Christ Himself suffered. Illness, disease, (these that he took into himself from others who he healed) torture, persecution... he had no home, no bed, no material wealth for himself, certainly no golden robes and big hats or multi-million dollar buildings in New York and various properties throughout the world. His followers, those who belong to Him, suffered. KNEW that they would suffer in this world, as it is part of this world. From the sin and death that are in these vessels (given to us from Adam... the same way that our children inherit these physical bodies, so too did Adam's inherit his physical body; it is the same) But also from the suffering that man inflicts upon his fellow man. (like the starving child of the mother in Africa) Because they are not listening to God. Because they LACK love.

    Those who belong to Chrsit and to God know also that God also has a kingdom that He created from the very beginning, that He has given to Christ who shares it with those who belong to Him through His Son (and are so adopted as sons by God), as well as inviting into that Kingdom all those who do good to even the least of Christ's brothers. And God protects all of these in HIS Kingdom (though ironically, some will still take issue that He protects them against those outside the kingdom who will come against them, to try and destroy them and take the kingdom for themselves... while in the same breath blaming God for not doing something about those who harm people here and now). To enter that Kingdom we are given NEW bodies... the white robes - spiritual bodies - made clean in Christ and having no sin and death in them.

    And that call and invitation is open to anyone who is thirsting and seeking.

    May any who wish and any who thirst hear and come, as the Spirit and the Bride say to them,

    "Come! Take the free gift of the water of life."

    Peace and love to you,

    tammy

  • cofty
    cofty

    Usual drivel regarding the problem of evil.

    You blame the victims for their own predicament and grovel to an impotent deity.

    Trite nonsense.

  • Monsieur
    Monsieur

    adam

    lol, ok let's continue the game then.

    here is the word GOD (which i percieve by virtue of recognizing the grouping of letters which i have typed, thus making it a SYMBOL for something that cannot be percieved)

    Here is the word LOVE (same as above)

    I am stating that the SYMBOL GOD is the same as the SYMBOL LOVE.

    easy enough?

  • adamah
    adamah

    Prologos said-

    Monsieur, it resembles a Moebius Strip, twisted , never ending surface.

    Really? It looks like a number 8 that's fallen over to me.

    Monsieur said-

    I am stating that the SYMBOL GOD is the same as the SYMBOL LOVE.

    easy enough?

    Nope.

    Symbol of LUV =

    or even

    or

    Symbol of God is something like:

    Adam

  • Monsieur
    Monsieur

    adam

    Nope.

    Symbol of LUV =

    or even

    or

    Symbol of God is something like:

    Ha! time for my afternoon ...

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    if the God who is murdering people in the Bible doesn't exist, then obviously no one was murdered BY THIS GOD. am i wrong here? (otherwise we are arguing lord of the rings here. so let's discard this notion of an angry old man in heaven hacking away at innocent babies). IF, and only IF, people were murdered as the Bible account would state, the question should be, WHO murdered these people. Then we could get to the WHY.

    Three direct questions not answered, it's not much of a debate is it?

    You mention "THIS GOD" which one do you mean? You should either take ownership of your statement that the bible god is a god of love or backtrack and say your god and the god of the bible are two different deities.

    again, you've missed my incredibly simple description of 'God', God is a SYMBOL. A symbol represents many things. In another comment Adam and I agreed that a rose (when used as a symbol for example) can represent the following from wikipedia-

    Three direct questions not answered, it's not much of a debate is it?

    No, I didn't miss your description, I just find it vapid, vacuous and banal.

    God, (a symbol) then can represent MANY things as well, such as love, or math, and science. why math and science? because God is described as being PERFECT, ETERNALY TRUSTWORTHY, UNFALABLE. Thus God (as a symbol remember) also represents these things. Man wouldn't catapult himself up into space or on the moon unless there was considerable trust in math, woudlnt' you say so??

    You seem to be vacillating, is maths considerably trustworthy or eternally trustworthy? There seems to be a gulf between those two positions. As someone who uses maths and science everyday in my work, it is not so much trust in maths or science as the person doing the calculations (i.e fallible humans)

    Math ISN'T perfect, infallabe, and infinitely trustworthy??? come on now...

    No, because maths and science is done by imperfect people. No science is perfect or infallible, thats why we have peer review.

    You just did, above, by stating that there is nothing perfect and infallible in the universe.

    You are conflating two very different positions there. One is that maths and science are our best tools for understanding the universe, two that there is nothing perfect in the universe. We do not have a perfect understanding of maths and science so our (human's) science is not perfect. The underlying maths and physics that govern our universe are cold hard rules of gravity and orbital mechanics, that work to keep the earth in orbit or plow an asteroid into the earth the next day. Is it that what you think is perfect and infallible?

    caedes, you are asking how is God a symbol of love. How is anything a symbol of anything?

    No, I am asking for a definition of the substance of your god since you seem to dislike the idea I put forward that your god does not have any real effect on the world.

    you accept that the peace sign stands for peace, right? why? how does the simple peace sign encompass such a powerful message? and why does anyone accept the meaning of the peace sign?

    Immaterial.

    so, when you read that Jesus walked on water, he did...what?

    You pre-suppose that I believe in the biblical account of Jesus. I have seen Steven Frayne do that on TV, I simply assumed it's a very clever trick not that he really has magic powers. Since the bible was written so long after the event I can happily assume a large amount of chinese whispers have occurred between any real event and the biblical account.

  • Comatose
    Comatose

    Tammy - I find your answer above on why god would ignore a poor starving kid in Africa and help a lady with old clothes get some nice new ones to be scary and sad. To imagine that god just ignores billions because they do not belong to him or know how to address him just right in parayer, feels very wrong to me.

    If that version of god were truly the way he was, I would choose to ignore him and choose to live without him. I don't want to be saved by or live forever with that god.

    My way of delaing with it when I was mentally in the game as a witness was this: God wants to help everyone on the earth. It makes him sick this stuff happens. He can't wait to fix it. One day soon the paradise will fix all of this. They will be resurrected and the infinity they enjoy will fix the poor wretched life they have now. God CAN'T do anything now or it will ruin the issue of Universal Sovreignty being settled now.

    Then I thought about Universal Sovreignty and free will and it was total tripe. I have not found a plausible excuse for why we see the suffering we do if God is there and cares. Universal Sovreignty and free will can't answer it, and that just makes the whole concept of god caring collapse for me.

  • tec
    tec

    Tammy - I find your answer above on why god would ignore a poor starving kid in Africa and help a lady with old clothes get some nice new ones to be scary and sad.

    Humans ignore that child. The ones who are supposed to be caring for him.

    I'm not sure what you're talking regarding the clothes... unless you are referring to the spirit bodies? THe white robes that Chirst gives... that have no sin and death in them... so that the ones wearing them enter into His Kingdom (the spiritual realm) and have NO suffering, or starving, or death?

    To imagine that god just ignores billions because they do not belong to him or know how to address him just right in parayer, feels very wrong to me.

    They ignore Him, Coma. Perhaps becuase they have been taught to ignore Him... perhaps because they don't want to hear what He has to say... (including that one must go through Christ... to see the Father)

    If that version of god were truly the way he was, I would choose to ignore him and choose to live without him. I don't want to be saved by or live forever with that god.

    Many do this now. Many blame him for the suffering of this world... all the while the suffering is unnecessary and comes from NOT listening to Him. But instead of turning around and listening, and doing as He has told them TO do... they just blame Him for not fixing what they have broken instead. But like I said, those who know him... those with faith in him... they KNOW that this life has suffering.

    Because this world is not the Kingdom of God.

    My way of delaing with it when I was mentally in the game as a witness was this: God wants to help everyone on the earth. It makes him sick this stuff happens. He can't wait to fix it. One day soon the paradise will fix all of this. They will be resurrected and the infinity they enjoy will fix the poor wretched life they have now. God CAN'T do anything now or it will ruin the issue of Universal Sovreignty being settled now.

    Many of these things are true. But the reason for the delay is untrue.

    The thing that most do not understand... is that to end all suffering and evil... those who cause suffering and evil must also be ended, or at least cut off. But not all have come to Him yet... who DO belong to Him. When all who can come to Him... do... then the end will come, and Christ will bring His Kingdom. Until then... anyone may still come to Christ, and be invited into His Kingdom.

    Then I thought about Universal Sovreignty and free will and it was total tripe. I have not found a plausible excuse for why we see the suffering we do if God is there and cares. Universal Sovreignty and free will can't answer it, and that just makes the whole concept of god caring collapse for me.

    Universal sovereignty is tripe... but free will is not.

    This world has suffering... these bodies suffer, get sick, die... people in this world cause suffering.

    God does not cause the suffering. Nor will he harm his own children... and destroying all that causes evil and suffering would do that, at this time.

    Peace to you,

    tammy

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