cantleave had a valid opinion. Is God like a pencil-pointless?

by KateWild 100 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Caedes

  big emphasis on the word IF. God is mentioned everywhere, not just the Bible. But, in the Bible, there is a verse that says 'God is love', hence my inclusion of it.

  Remember, you are the one that bought up the bible in reference to a description of your god, not me. I can understand you might want to pick and choose the bits you like out of it. How much have you picked out of the koran then? Why do you choose to leave out the parts where god is murdering people? So is your god just what you wish it to be? Are you just playing fantasy deity?

  After all, all the words you have used are simply description of behaviours or qualities not of substance.

  you suspect wrong caedes. i would not categorize math and science as having no effect on the universe or of being unsubstantial. our solar system's perfect transit alone is purely mathematical.

  What has maths and science got to do with your god? where is the evidence to link them? Where is the description of the substance of your god?

  on a more 'down to earth' sense, i would argue that my mother's love has had an immense effect on me.

  So are you saying that without god your mother wouldn't love you? Where is the evidence to link love and your god.

  Why must god be something else? The simple alternative is that god is a fiction. I would argue that there is nothing perfect, infallable or infinitely trustworthy.

  God as an angry old man in heaven is fiction. Again, math and science are not. Care to argue against mathematics? i can guarantee you that you wll lose every time.

  Couldn't answer the question why must god be anything else? Nice deflection. Couldn't answer the point that there is nothing perfect, infallable or infinitely trustworthy in the universe? again nice deflection.

  Are you arguing with voices in your head because I cannot see where I argued against mathematics. I would point you to my earlier reply, where is the evidence to link maths and god because maths and science stand perfectly well without god.

  you assumed that my interpretation of 'God' was limited by the Bible. My response to you had the objective of clarifying otherwise. your comprehension skills here unfortunately failed you.

  No, you referenced the bible in your vague nebulous description of your god, I fully understand you wish to create a new fictional god that is not defined in any meaningful way.

  for starters, there is plenty of love in the world to go around.

  You have so far failed to provide any evidence to support your assertion the two ideas are in any way linked, strangely I find your say so to be unconvincing.

  I do not KNOW there is no god.

  here adam would say 'you cannot use TWO negatives in the same sentence.'

  I just did, the meaning of my reply is obvious, I merely framed my reply in the same manner as your question. I am sure you can work out what I am saying if you really try.

  what did REALISTICALLY, MATHEMATICALLY, SCIENTIFICALLY, actually happen. Apply this rule to the various bits, and the answer becomes obvious.

  I did that and came to an answer diametrically opposed to the answer you came to, so the answer is clearly not obvious.
• 

  Monsieur

  yadda,

  What Christians like Tammy choose to ignore or fail to understand is that answering prayers is INTERVENTION. If God is not intervening to prevent evil and suffering, neither can he intervene in the form of answering any prayers whatsoever. If God does not intervene to save starving and diseased babies and infants and their mother's heart-wrenching pleas to heaven, then obviously neither is he answering the pleas of smug, self-righteous western Christians. Otherwise God is a moral monster.

  lol yadda

  you are throwing terms like 'existential crisis' around simply because you assume that people do not know what such term means.

  But Yadda, makes a far more important point that just doest sit well with me. Why does he permit suffering? The JW answer is not satisfying to me.

  kate,

  you ask a question 'Why does god permit suffering?' whose answer requires that we think 'outside of the box'.

  the key word here is PERMIT. who is REALLY permiting evil in this world? is it possible that MAN has become complacent and has simply chosen to ignore fundamental human values ?

  as i explained to yadda, MAN'S capacity for good and acomplishment is hugely under rated. There is a book called 'The Power of One' often used in business, but the concept applies to bigger spectrums. In my opinion, it can also apply to attacking the evil in this world. It implies that many minds that come together become 'One' very powerful mind, capable of powerful accomplishments.

  but us (man) waiting around for 'God' to intervine is EXACTLY the same as PERMITING evil. we would not (i would hope so) stand still and watch abuse or evil occur without us intervening(waiting on 'God'). if enough of us in this world would do this, I guarantee that evil would greatly decrease.

  thus the question 'why does God permit evil' (which does NOTHING to correct the problem) must be interpreted as

  'What can I do to prevent evil' (ACTION to correct the problem).
• 

  adamah

  Hi Kate,

  Thanks for your well-reasoned reply: it's a refreshing change from the usual ego-driven responses we see!

  Assuming you're still following the thread, here's some food for thought (which is a dangerous thing, I know, within the walls of a KH):

  Kate said-

  I highlighted the intellegence of sub atomic particles and electrons moving in their orbitals within a solid.

  The reason the behavior of sub-atomic particles appears orderly is because on one level, it is orderly and predictable since we've figured it out. In fact, that kind of predictability is the very reason why we are able to design and fabricate amazing semi-conductors that take advantage of the various properties of atoms (eg silicon-based processors).

  However, when you get into the World of quantum physics, the behavior of matter becomes quite unpredictable, where the more we learn about it (over the past few hundred years), the more we find that it IS unpredictable, and hence the need to resort to probabilities and use concepts where we must accept the chaotic nature of matter (eg Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle). In fact, the rule of thumb in science is that 'chaos' (disorderliness) far outweighs orderliness, where even many focal episodes of chaos are well-known (eg on Earth, volcanos, tornados, hurricanes, etc; in space, black holes, stars that go supernova, or even the immense expanse of space itself, which is inhospitable to human life without life support).

  Point being, the very existence of chaos throughout the Universe and on Earth implies God hasn't separated it out.

  Kate said-

  But also another poster mentioned something in another thread that sounds quite logical to me also. They stated...

  Racemic mixtures are made in controlled lab environments, but in nature the the L-enantiomer is about 80% more common than the D-enantiomer. So for me it's a matter of probabilities. If we look at how the sterochemistry of amino acids evolved, a racemic solution would result. Therefore in my view Jehovah would have to use polarising separating techniques to achieve the correct balance.

  I really like this point, but as cofty quite rightly pointed out in both instances, this is a god-of-the-gaps argument.

  Yup, and a good question to ask is, "how would "it" (eg racemic mixtures, or subatomic behavior, etc), look any different if it HADN'T been created by an Intelligent Designer?"

  In ALL cases, it would look exactly the same as it does now.

  But even worse, once you get into studying the vast spectrum of life forms on the Planet, you run into examples that are simply inexplicable, eg, why would a loving God design the bacteria which cause tuberculosis in humans, EVEN BEFORE Adam had sinned?

  Pathology textbooks are filled with literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of examples of bacteria, virii, and obligate parasites where Creationism doesn't provide a satisfying answer of why God would create life-forms with no other known function BUT to cause disease, where it makes perfect sense when you realize they're not 'evil beings' being agents of either Satan or God, but simply another life-form that's found a niche (even if it's inside the lungs of humans).

  Why would Jesus repeat common ancient misbeliefs on disease, eg by telling humans that diseases were caused by 'sin' (he healed by forgiving people their sins, something he claimed to be authorized by God to do), rather than bacteria and virii? Why did he tell humans that handwashing was worthless, when we KNOW it is (in the words of the World Health Organization ) "the singlemost important means of spreading diseases"?

  Why would Jesus cure a handful of lepers by "forgiving their sins", instead of simply giving them an inexpensive antibiotic that has literally cured upwards of TWENTY MILLION people Worldwide (at no cost to the patient) of this devastating condition?

  Thank you Adam for showing an interest in what I believe and why I believe it

  And good luck on your search for truths!

  (PS you ask too many good questions to remain satisfied with the answers the JWs can provide.... I was in your shoes, about 40 yrs ago, but then I decided to set out and FIND "the truth" and don't reget the decision for a minute, despite the costs. For me, there's no cost too high when the goal is to find the truth.)

  Adam
• 

  adamah

  Monsieur said-

  you ask a question 'Why does god permit suffering?' whose answer requires that we think 'outside of the box'. the key word here is PERMIT. who is REALLY permiting evil in this world?

  God is, according to the parable of Job.

  In fact, God proves Himself as the Divine AUTHORIZER of evil, where Satan is shown as a member of Team Jehovah who has to seek God's permission to test individuals.

  I provided a link in the thread below to a site run by Robert Sutherland, a CA lawyer and believer who writes on the 'oath of innocence', an ancient legal premise common throughout various Nations of the Ancient Near East which underlies the account. So if you don't understand the legal premise that drives the story of Job, then you really don't understand the story of Job.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/265623/1/The-Animated-Story-of-Job#.Ump3kCQhZLc

  It's well-worth a read.

  Adam
• 

  Monsieur

  caedes,

  How much have you picked out of the koran then? Why do you choose to leave out the parts where god is murdering people? So is your god just what you wish it to be?

  caedes, if the God who is murdering people in the Bible doesn't exist, then obviously no one was murdered BY THIS GOD. am i wrong here? (otherwise we are arguing lord of the rings here. so let's discard this notion of an angry old man in heaven hacking away at innocent babies).

  IF, and only IF, people were murdered as the Bible account would state, the question should be, WHO murdered these people. Then we could get to the WHY.

  What has maths and science got to do with your god? where is the evidence to link them? Where is the description of the substance of your god?

  again, you've missed my incredibly simple description of 'God', God is a SYMBOL. A symbol represents many things. In another comment Adam and I agreed that a rose (when used as a symbol for example) can represent the following from wikipedia-

  Medieval Christians identified the five petals of the rose with the five wounds of Christ. Roses also later came to be associated with the Virgin Mary. The red rose was eventually adopted as a symbol of the blood of the Christian martyrs. A bouquet of red roses, often used to show love, is used as a Valentine's Day gift in many countries.

  God, (a symbol) then can represent MANY things as well, such as love, or math, and science. why math and science? because God is described as being PERFECT, ETERNALY TRUSTWORTHY, UNFALABLE. Thus God (as a symbol remember) also represents these things. Man wouldn't catapult himself up into space or on the moon unless there was considerable trust in math, woudlnt' you say so??

  Couldn't answer the question why must god be anything else? Nice deflection. Couldn't answer the point that there is nothing perfect, infallable or infinitely trustworthy in the universe? again nice deflection.

  Math ISN'T perfect, infallabe, and infinitely trustworthy??? come on now...

  Are you arguing with voices in your head because I cannot see where I argued against mathematics.

  You just did, above, by stating that there is nothing perfect and infallible in the universe.

  You have so far failed to provide any evidence to support your assertion the two ideas are in any way linked, strangely I find your say so to be unconvincing.

  caedes, you are asking how is God a symbol of love. How is anything a symbol of anything?

  you accept that the peace sign stands for peace, right? why? how does the simple peace sign encompass such a powerful message? and why does anyone accept the meaning of the peace sign?

  I did that and came to an answer diametrically opposed to the answer you came to, so the answer is clearly not obvious.

  so, when you read that Jesus walked on water, he did...what?
• 

  adamah

  Monsieur said-

  again, you've missed my incredibly simple description of 'God', God is a SYMBOL. A symbol represents many things. In another comment Adam and I agreed that a rose (when used as a symbol for example) can represent the following from wikipedia-

  Keep running that "God is a symbol" misconception up the flagpole, Monsieur, and see if anyone salutes.

  I've explained REPEATEDLY that a "symbol" (eg a stop sign, a flag that symbolizes the Nation it represents, etc) MUST be preceivable, since it cannot represent something else UNLESS it IS preceivable itself. That's the VERY DEFINITION of a symbol: something perceivable that represents something else (whether the 'something else' is perceivable or not).

  Why is that such a hard concept for you to wrap your head around? Are you intentionally refusing to see it, since you don't WANT it to be the case that there already IS a commonly-accepted definition of a 'symbol' which doesn't fit into your desired agenda?

  Adam
• 

  Monsieur

  adam,

  God is, according to the parable of Job.

  so a God that doesn't exist is responsible for evil?
• 

  Monsieur

  adam,

  I've explained REPEATEDLY that a "symbol" (eg a stop sign, a flag that symbolizes the Nation it represents, etc) MUST be preceivable, since it cannot represent something else UNLESS it IS preceivable itself. That's the VERY DEFINITION of a symbol: something perceivable that represents something else (whether the 'something else' is perceivable or not).

  how about this one?

  

  what does the peace symbol above represent that is SO percievable??
• 

  Monsieur

  

  here is another one, the infinity symbol, what percievable thing does it represent?
• 

  tec

  Fabulous question, I absolutely am loved and cared for. They are so loving kind and supportive, my close loved ones hate what is going on and are desperate for me to get reinstated. They know my JC hate me and are wrong. Thats the problem Tammy. I am only going to get reinstated for them, because we are talking in secret. But they will have to accept soon that my JC will never reinstate me.

  I am so glad for that... that they are still showing love and talking to you. They are not listening to the wts and their rules, but rather are acting in love, despite the wts. I hope that they continue to do so even after realizing that you are not going to be reinstated. I hope even more that they might realize that there is something wrong with the wts 'truth', that it would require them to act against love, and mercy, and forgiveness.

  But Yadda, makes a far more important point that just doest sit well with me. Why does he permit suffering? The JW answer is not satisfying to me.

  I'm going to respond to yadda yadda here in a minute. There is a huge, and I mean HUGE, lol, thread on this topic from a couple years back. I will look it up for you also, and you can read through that. It has been a while since I looked at it, but it covers just about all the arguments, I think.

  (The JW answer... universal soverignty... is false though, so that might be why it is not satisfying to you. The adversary does not challenge God... his challenge and accusations are against US.)

  Peace to you,

  tammy