Knowledge by Proxy

by braincleaned 141 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • tec
    tec

    Adamah, of course all those other examples of people heard. Perhaps they did not hear in words; there are other ways the Spirit speaks. That is how they knew what to DO. They did the will of God because they heard it and did it.

    There are two apparently strong words here to define "Faith":
    1) — assurance
    2) — conviction
    * (other versions use similar wording)

    Yes : )

    However, these strong words shrink by the following words; hope, and evidence not seen.

    1) Faith GIVES hope... that assurance allows us to look forward to what we do not YET behold/see (the resurrection, the kingdom, life)... knowing that these are true and real.

    2) Evidence OF things not yet seen. Christ being that evidence (his words, his own resurrection - the sign of Jonah).

    Faith follows the thing heard (the Spirit, who is Christ), and so we may have confidence that what we hope for is real and true... because HE (Christ) is real and true who tells us (about the life in Him, the resurrection, the kingdom).

    Peace to you both, as always,

    tammy

  • braincleaned
    braincleaned

    Understood... but the core question is, is this Faith based on a real person? And if so, why doesn't he make himself real to all?
    Logically — if like you say — Christ is the evidence on which Faith is based upon, nobody he has not revealed himself to should be expected to exercise that Faith.

    I for one think that the man Jesus was just a wise man, not a god.
    It is more than reasonable that I cannot have faith in him unless he reveals himself to me.

    I know what you are going to say; he DOES reveal himself but I don't acknowledge him.
    Of course, that would be a tad insulting to assume I would be so stupid to put my family and myself in jeopardy for purposely ignoring him.
    I used to believe he was a savior... but my honest quest concluded otherwise.

    I repeat, my honest quest concluded otherwise.
    Why would my sincerity be punished?

    Where am I not being logical and reasonable?

  • tec
    tec

    Understood... but the core question is, is this Faith based on a real person? And if so, why doesn't he make himself real to all?Logically — if like you say — Christ is the evidence on which Faith is based upon, nobody he has not revealed himself to should be expected to exercise that Faith.

    Yes, i agree... though some seek Him for the truth they hear in and from Him. And because they seek Him out of love and a thirst for the truth, they will find Him (or they will at least allow themselves to be found BY Him)

    I for one think that the man Jesus was just a wise man, not a god. It is more than reasonable that I cannot have faith in him unless he reveals himself to me.

    I don't think I can answer that one for you.

    I know what you are going to say; he DOES reveal himself but I don't acknowledge him.

    Or you do not understand what you are listening for, or what you are hearing, or how He reveals himself, as the 'wise men' of this world have covered over everything to do with the spirit as 'woo', and that there IS 'woo' out there, doesn't help matters. But even religion doesn't teach much in the way of the Spirit; because religion IS seen. The leaders/elders/priests/popes/art/bible/doctrines/dogmas/buildings/crosses/churches/etc. It can be quite a vibrant sight... drawing the eyes... and those speaking IN her, can be quite loud, drowning out that still, small voice.

    Of course, that would be a tad insulting to assume I would be so stupid to put my family and myself in jeopardy for purposely ignoring him.

    I would NEVER think that you were purposely ignoring him. You do not seem dogmatic, or driven to fight against Him, or insincere. Fear is something can keep us from hearing Him. I don't say that this is what hinders you. Just stating so, as fear has often hindered me.

    Faith is also not the possession of all men.

    I used to believe he was a savior... but my honest quest concluded otherwise.
    I repeat, my honest quest concluded otherwise.

    I never said you were being dishonest.. and... you don't look nearly old enough for you journey (and so your quest) to be over ; )

    Why would my sincerity be punished?

    Punished how?

    Atheists don't go to hell, you know. (there is no such place as this evangelical burning hell) Atheists are not denied entrance into the kingdom either. (though I don't believe they are atheists at this point anymore, lol) They are not denied simply for having been atheists at least.

    But if you are a leader, do you set at your sides or send out those who do not hear you and obey... or do you set at your side and send out those who do hear and obey you (and so obviously know you)... so that they may serve you and your kingdom (that you are going to share with them) and all those you love, and so that they can witness truthfully to you?

    Christ gathers all those who belong to Him (those who have died and those who yet live)... both the 144000 reserved from Israel, and the great crowd from EVERY tribe, nation, tongue, people... and these rule with him for a thousand years. But also the subjects of the kingdom are those who did not know Christ, but who Christ KNEW because of what they did. (... as he said to the sheep, in the separation of the sheep and the goats: what you did for even one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me; come into the kingdom prepared for you from the beginning) These ones also enter the Kingdom.

    Where am I not being logical and reasonable?

    It is not that you are not being logical and reasonable... and I do hope you are not taking my posts to you as any form of judgment, because I am not judging you. Not at all. People can be logical and reasonable according to what they know, have been taught, or understand... but still be mistaken. Right?

    Peace again to you,

    tammy

  • braincleaned
    braincleaned

    This is an interesting conversation. We both respect each other and try to understand. I appreciate the exchange.

  • tec
    tec

    As do I!

    Peace,

    tammy

  • adamah
    adamah

    TEC said-

    Adamah, of course all those other examples of people heard. Perhaps they did not hear in words; there are other ways the Spirit speaks. That is how they knew what to DO. They did the will of God because they heard it and did it.

    And how would the Spirit accomplish that, exactly?

    Heck, take Abel, the first example cited in the Chapter as one of the men who had exemplary faith:

    Hebrews 11:4 (NASB)

    4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

    How exactly was Abel able offer "a better sacrifice" than Cain's, such that Abel would receive God's praise and be viewed as righteous?

    Did God whisper the answer in only Abel's ear ("Abel, I've really got a hankering for tasty BBQ, so kill the firstborn of your flock and burn it!")? God didn't do the same for Cain?

    That kind of interpretation would violate the definition of faith given just a few sentences earlier, since 'faith' is said to rely on "unseen evidence" (or more generally speaking, imperceptible evidence, where despite the complete lack of any verifiable or confirmatory external proof, the faithful individual nevertheless acts with full confidence, based only on trust or hope AKA blind obedience).

    So in your explanation, please try to avoid the use of figures-of-speech from the world of sensory perception (eg words like 'speak', 'hear', 'saw', 'felt', 'perceived,' etc, as those all are NOT "imperceptible", but relate to perceivable sensory stimuli).

    Point being, try to connect the dots as you might, but when the Bible speaks of faith, it refers to acting without any other reason to justify the action, aside from what the believer HOPES is true, being completely DEVOID of discernable or detectable evidence. Faith is what drives JWs to knock on doors, even die by refusing blood, as they're trusting that they'll be rewarded with eternal life spent enjoying marathon panda-petting sessions. Faith is no joke: people are willing to DIE in the name of faith (confusing their obstinance and closed-minded commitment to dogmatic beliefs with it).

    That's an irrational and dangerous attitude to take, as anyone who acts on faith actually is (to borrow a line from the far-more practical advice from Aesop's Fables) NOT "looking before they leap":

    One day, a Fox fell into a deep well and couldn't climb out.

    A thirsty Goat soon came to the same well, and seeing the Fox, called down to ask whether the water was good.

    Pretending to be happy (and not in despair), the Fox lavishly praised the water, saying how absolutely delicious it tasted, anncouraging the Goat to come down and join him in the well.

    The Goat, thinking only of his thirst, stupidly jumped down.

    As he drank, the Fox informed him of the difficulty they were both in and suggested a scheme for their common escape.

    “If,” said the Fox, “you put your forefeet up on the wall and bend your head down, I will run up your back like a ramp and escape, and then I will help you out afterwards."

    The Goat agreed and so the Fox leaped upon his back. Steadying himself with the Goat’s horns, he safely reached the mouth of the well...and took off as fast as he could!

    When the Goat complained of the Fox breaking his promise, the Fox turned around and cried out, “You old Goat! If you had as many brains in your head as you have hairs in your beard, you would never have gone down without making sure there was a way back up. Only a foolish fellow exposes himself to dangers from which he has no means of escape!”

    Moral: "LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP".

    Adam

  • tec
    tec

    Adamah why do you think unseen means imperceptible? Imperceptible is something that cannot be perceived, and faith and the Spirit are certainly able to be perceived. (even if you do not think so personally, certainly they are taught as being perceptible by those who wrote in the bible)

    Unseen with the eyes does not mean that something cannot be perceived (heard, for instance) by some other means.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • adamah
    adamah

    TEC, you dodged my direct question.

    Faith requires an ABSENSE of signs (and that's referring to ANY sensory input, hearing included).

    That's precisely the reason WHY Abraham's hearing God's order telling him to kill his son Isaac didn't require faith: the account (as well as the others) assume that hearing the voice of God is a commonplace occurrance, just a regular event in the OT. Rather, faith on Abraham's part was needed to believe that God would keep the prior promise made to Abraham about being blessed with many descendents,described as "the stars of the heaven in number".

    Abraham never lived to witness that promise being fulfilled, which is exactly why the chapter concludes with this:

    39 And all these (men), having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised. 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

    Point being, though, hearing the voice of God didn't build or contribute to his faith, since it was perceived; instead, ACTING on faith required faith that God would be able to do what was needed to not break his prior promise to Abraham.

    But back to the question about Abel.

    Here it is again:

    And how would the Spirit accomplish that, exactly?

    Heck, take Abel, the first example cited in the Chapter as one of the men who had exemplary faith:

    Hebrews 11:4 (NASB)

    4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

    How exactly was Abel able offer "a better sacrifice" than Cain's, such that Abel would receive God's praise and be viewed as righteous?

    Did God whisper the answer in only Abel's ear ("Abel, I've really got a hankering for tasty BBQ, so kill the firstborn of your flock and burn it!")? God didn't do the same for Cain?

    Adam

  • tec
    tec

    I did not dodge the question. I went to the root of what I think may be your misunderstanding.

    It is not about WHAT Abel sacrificed. But Paul may have been referring to Abel knowing that blood covers sin. How would Abel have known that? He would have heard that truth, heard that truth within him. Cain, not so much. I mean, Cain did not listen even when God spoke DIRECTLY to Him, with words.

    The Spirit speaks. I have shared before how: in words; in understanding given; in dreams; in images; in reminders of scripture or other things written; in visions; etc. Abel had the faith to hear and to do, according to the will of God. As did the others; including Moses parents; including the prostitute Rahab, etc.

    I hope that you can answer the question that I asked you now?

    Peace,

    tammy

  • adamah
    adamah

    TEC said- I did not dodge the question. I went to the root of what I think may be your misunderstanding.

    Hey, I'm not the one who misunderstands what faith is: that's all on you, TEC....

    TEC said- It is not about WHAT Abel sacrificed. But Paul may have been referring to Abel knowing that blood covers sin. How would Abel have known that? He would have heard that truth, heard that truth within him. Cain, not so much. I mean, Cain did not listen even when God spoke DIRECTLY to Him, with words.

    Nope. You're making up stuff, AKA Xian eisegesis.

    Their sacrifices were not sin offerings, but are explicitly stated in Genesis as to the specific type, i.e. Abel brought the "first-born" of his flocks and received God's favor; hence their sacrifices are consistent with what later were called in Leviticus as "wellness (AKA 'first fruits') offerings", as described in Leviticus 23:9. This account was the prototype for thanksgiving for God’s provision, an offering made before the rest of the harvest work was completed.

    But even more importantly, remember that the account of Cain and Abel is set about 2,500 yrs BEFORE God handed down Levitical laws to Moses, which EXPLICITLY told the Jews what they were to offer to atone for sin, or at harvest time to offer their first-fruits to God, etc. In fact, that's the ENTIRE POINT Paul was making by talking about Abel in a treatise on faith: per Paul, Abel demonstrated his faith even before Levitical law was handed down to Moses, since before then, the concept of offering sacrifices to God was done purely on the basis of faith. Abel got it right, and Cain didn't, as he failed to offer his best efforts (AKA first fruits) to God. While Cain didn't face punishment for failing to offer the best of his crops to God, he didn't win first-prize at the County Fair, either.

    TEC said- The Spirit speaks. I have shared before how: in words; in understanding given; in dreams; in images; in reminders of scripture or other things written; in visions; etc. Abel had the faith to hear and to do, according to the will of God. As did the others; including Moses parents; including the prostitute Rahab, etc.

    You're shot-gunning, and even adding details to the Bible? Careful, as Jesus decribed the Bible as "perfect" as written, and elsewhere warns about those teachers with their false doctrines who'd dare to twist and alter the meanings to suit their own man-made ideologies.

    Please answer the original question which you leaped over in a single bound about Abel.

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