by ARoarer 55 Replies latest social current
Dear ARoarer,
Just want to send you my warmest regards and express my heartfelt support for you and your family.... hang in there, hon...
This entire thread is EXTREMELY useful at this particular point in time for a friend of mine, and everyone who has commented thus far have made such wonderful contributions.
Thanks to all of you.
lauralisa
laurelisa, thank you for your kind words.
Seeker, we got 2 more letters from them since I last posted. They are unbelievable in there arrogant stupidity. What is so pathetic they truly believe there pathetic religious legal rhetoric. It is too bad they have rights regarding getting away with such disgusting behavior in the name of religious freedom. Yet they don't allow for anyone else to have religious freedom without religous persecution.
I can theoitally(sp?)see the newspaper headline`Disfellowshiped for protesting at JW pchild-molester policy'.
That would down a treat at Crooklyn!
Hello, ARoarer,
More power to you.
There is something that you may find interesting and that I would sure appreciate if you could do.
For some time now I've been looking for a situation where a certain strategy could be applicable. This looks like it may be one. In fact you yourself bring it up:
Yet they don't allow for anyone else to have religious freedom without religous persecution.In a sense, the Society has all of its eggs in one basket. Without their defense of freedom of religion, they have almost nothing. How interesting it would be if we could transform this almost impenetrable wall that they hide behind into their enemy by using it as a weapon against them. Remember how the only thing that will cut a diamond is another diamond?
Sue them for violating your freedom of religion. Pit the freedom of religion of an individual against the freedom of religion of an organization. Put the question before the court: Does a religious organization have the right to force individuals to violate their conscience?
There are all kinds of things that could sweeten this pot. For instance:
1. The Nuremburg Trials. Men were convicted and executed for NOT following their consciences.
2. Some religions have been running amok. The governments have few weapons to pull them into line. This could be developed into a tool that would help. I think that the State Department would be quite interested in how such a case would turn out.
3. The ACLU may very well be interested. They can hardly be classified as religion's ally.
4. It's unique approach will get the attention of a vast number of powerful people. Win and you've destroyed their defenses. They'll be as helpless as a beached whale. Lose, and you've still done considerable damage.
This is an untried approach and therein is its advantage. It's new ground and they haven't been over it a thousand times before. As a result, they'll be more tenative.
Perhaps most importantly, you will be one-upping them in the finesse and mind-game departments. This will scare the crap out of them. They've had it too easy for too long.
The favor you could do me is to run this by your lawyers. I'd like to know their opinion.
LoneWolf
This whole thread is a saver - such excellent advice!
Seeker4's advice (all of it) was superb - I honestly think that ARoarer might be considered such a threat that the WTBTS will cut off it's nose to spite it's face in this case. A PR nightmare!
And in writing!!!!! TWO more letters - which, I presume, would have WTBTS letterhead......which could be shown on TV.....and in newspaper? As Jay Leno said to Hugh Grant "What the HELL were you thinking of????"
ARoarer, I marvel at your family's ability to survive, even grow, under this mental, legal, spiritual, emotion pain. Congratulations for your victories. Btw, I hope your daughter has grown into a typical teenager in spite of this......and my congratulations when you survive that too.
waiting
ps: Your daughter just might have grown into a typical teenager because of all your family hard work too - not in spite of this situation. Guess it all depends on how you look at it. Who would have thought a *typical teenager* could be seen as a rewarding quality, eh? Congratulations either way.
I'm sure that this has been covered somewhere, but just a thought - as I have a son-in-law who also happens to be a lawyer. And I have a son, who will (hopefully) be a lawyer (next June) and a daughter who is an experienced court assistant.
Mr. and Mrs. ------- may present evidence or witnesses on their behalf at this hearing. The judicial committee encourgages them to be present and would like to help them if they have sincere doubts. But if Mr. and Mrs------ decide not to appear, the judicial commitee will proceed without them and make a decision on whether to disfellowship them based on the available evidence. - WT lawyerThe WT lawyer says that the judicial committe encourages *them* to be present - could be Mr. & Mrs., or it could be the witnesses - or both - as *them* is open to interpretation.
In case you are not aware, attorneys are not permitted to represent individuals at congregaton judicial commettee hearings.WT law. However, the WT lawyer doesn't say that attorneys - who aren't representing individuals - cannot be present as witnesses - the *them.* Which is what we told our WT lawyer......as our s--i-l had pertinent information about our situation - as a private citizen, he would be there as a witness who just happens to be an attorney also.
I would suspect that ARoarer might have had occasion to meet many different professionals along the way of this WT PR nightmare.
waiting
LoneWolfe, your thoughts are exactly what we have been going over as options in this situation. Our attorneys called and want us to meet with them tomorrow afternoon to discuss various options. They saw first hand the tactics and corruption of the elders taking direction from the Legal Dept when not being truthful on the witness stand. I have often wanted to get the civil liberties people involved with this. There is also another aspect and that is the fact that we are being religiously persecuted for following our conscience and not going along with Watchtower policies on different matters. There is also the issue of the psychological damage this is placing on our family. My daughter is now grown past a teen and is actually 26. For her stand, she is also being shunned by all who were once her closest friends, because she no longer wants to be in that Kingdom Hall. Her husband is a Witness son of one of the elders in the congregation we were associated with. Not one elder will even look at her or talk to her if she is at her own in-law's home. That is another whole issue we are dealing with. It bogles my mind that they could treat her and her family this way and freely associate with, instead with the Pedophile who caused these problems. It defies logic.
Waiting thankyou for some of your insight. We want to discuss these issues with our attorneys. I'll keep you informed.
Below is another response from WT in response to the following letter from the attorney:
Dear Mr. -----
I received your letter of April 19, 2002, and have forwarded it to my clients. Initially, please state your basis for denial of legal councel at this judicial hearing.
Second, my clients advise that they are entitled to knowa who will sit on the judicial committee. Please provide me with the bnames of the Elders by return facsimile.
Third, pleaase advise what evidence and witnesses will be presented at the hearing. Certainly the -------- are entitiled to this information prior to the May 6th date.
Lastly, the --------are aware of the May 6th date and request that the hearing proceed on this date.
Very truly yours,
Our Attorneys
In response they wrote;
Dear -- ---------
I recieved your fax letter of April 29, 2002, and appreciate your confirming that you have let your clients, ------------------------know about the May 6th , 2002 judicial committee hearing.
You aask why leagal counsel is not permitted ata the judicial committee proceeding. Be assured that the purpose of the judicial committee proceeding is spiritual in nature, not legal. This is not an advearsarial secular court proceeding. The judicial committee would like to try and help ------------ if they have sincere doubts.
As for the composition of the judicial committee, please assure ------------ that there is not need for them to be anxious or concerned about which elders will serve on their judicial committee. The body of elders has the best interests of the congregation in mind when selecting the elders who will serve on a judicial committee. Nevertheless, if ------------ believe that a specific elder on the body of elders should not serve on their judicial committee ecause they believe he connot be fair and impartial, pleaase let me know immediately and include the specific reason for their belief. The body of elders will consider their feelings and decide whethr or not to select a different elder for the committee.
As for the evidence and witnesses that will be presented, this information is not provided in advance of the hearing. But if the testimony of others is used, ------------ will have the opportunity to face their accusers and examine any other evidence presented at the hearing.
Sincerely
The Asshole from WT who wrote this
My question is if this is of a "spiritual nature" not a legal one why do they use legal rhetoric, such as witnesses, and accusers, testimony, evidence......
This, if it where not so pathetic, and evil is almost laughable how they are really taken in with themselves and their game of head trips of their "victims"
I am to aggravated to type right now.
This sentence in the letter from the elder can hardly be believed:
"Be assured that the purpose of the judicial committee proceeding is spiritual in nature, not legal."
Look up "judicial" in the dictionary, for god's sake!!
Sorry you're having to deal with this on top of everything else, Aroarer. But I'm glad you have in writing that the elders have refused to give you details of the allegations against you, or of the composition of the "non-judging" judicial committee.
I agree with Lone Wolf. I have long felt that there were serious human and civil rights issues with the WTS's judicial committee arrangement. You are essentially brought into a court where the judge, jury and prosecutors are the same people, and you also do not have access to the "law book" (elders manual and letters from the Society) that they will use in judging you. AND, you are not allowed knowlegable counsel, except that from the same three men who serve as your judge, jury and prosecutors. A severe conflict of interests here.
Of real concern in this is that the average Witness has no idea whatsoever if the elders on the committee are actually following the "theocratic procedures" laid out by the WTS. On many occasions I have seen someone totally fucked over by a judicial committee that failed to follow correct procedure - but there was no one there to pick up on it and set the matter straight. That to me is a serious civil rights problem.
Keep us posted, and good luck. Also, think seriously about Waiting's comments about bringing your lawyer as one of your invited witnesses. The more I think about that, the more sense it makes. I mean, they won't tell you the details of the charges, so you really have to be prepared for anything!!
S4
(((Aroarer)))
I think Amazing has some information regarding a religion being required to follow its own published policies.
This might be the clincher if they mess up the committee hearing. They're already in violation since their own website clearly states that those who "simply cease to be involved are not shunned."
As for the civil liberties issue, I also have been waiting for such an opportunity. I don't know what your financial situation is like but I'd love to see this go all the way to the top.
>This is not an advearsarial secular court proceeding.<
Rolling on the floor laughing my fckng head off--to the point of projectile vomiting..
bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahhahahaha
