The last line was meant to say that not all of who are thiests or diests believe the high lighted lines in my post. Universalists certainly do not believe, nor do they teach such abusive things. I agree with you, completely, that they are abusive. Just a reminder that theist does not equal those high lighted lines.
The life differences between a good christian and good athiest
by EndofMysteries 79 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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cofty
Really. There is such thing as a christian theist that doesn't believe Jesus died for their sins?
Please tell me more about this anomoly.
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Seraphim23
I myself am such a theist. I don’t believe Jesus died for my sins. Not directly anyway. I think he died in order to show a better way of relating to one’s own sins. I.e forgiveness starts with oneself and from the heart due to believing one is loved. Thus I believe that if one can convince someone who doesn’t love themselves that they are loved to the degree they believe it inside, then they can be forgiven in the sense the forgive themselves. So knowing Jesus directly is not necessarily necessary to being saved, but knowing the way and the truth is necessary to being saved and having a full life here and in the next life if there is one, which I do of course but that’s just icing on the cake.
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DJS
I know lots of atheists, and they are all balanced and happy. I know a few ex JWs who are also atheist and I believe they would tell you exactly what I tell you. My best friend exited the Borg shortly after I, and he has been an atheist for a bit less than I, but he is happier and more balanced than he has ever been. I know that we are sharing anecdotal 'evidence,' which although it has some relevance isn't exactlly a scientific study of ex JWs and their atheist happiness or lack thereof.
In summary, I can't refute your anecdotal experiences; they simply are not mine, not even close. I agree with Cofty (damn, I always agree with Cofty, I think I have a bromance going here), they would likely be sad regardless.
It seems to me that some (many) of the ex JWs suffer from the same malady that all of my ex girlfriends suffer from (ex GFs are the only thing I collect). They over analyze EVERYTHING. I have a response that makes the point when I talked to them and they were doing this (again). OA OA OA OA OA OA OA OA.
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Xanthippe
An atheist who believes in life after death is like a vegetarian who eats chicken and fish.
Analogies don't prove anything and it doesn't even make sense. There isn't even an internal logic in the analogy.
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cofty
Seraphim - that was just a jumble of unrelated words.
What did Jesus dying a violent death have to do with "a better way of relating to one’s own sins".
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OnTheWayOut
If a group of islanders think that the volcano god is their salvation and provider, they may waste hours and even days praying or sacrificing to that god. If they would keep their sacrifices and spend their time increasing their food or doing other activities that would indeed improve their lives, they would be way better off.
If your scenario is saying that is not the case- wasting time in church- all is fine and good about that.
Next- the children in church are taught the moral values of that church, be they decided upon by priests using the Bible or a majority within that religion. Often, the decision is to tell members that premarital sex, masturbation, homosexuality, abortion are wrong wrong wrong. Some go so far as to encourage members to take on certain political opinions. Regardless of what members might decide left on their own, churches often enforce their thoughts. Some churches discourage belief in things that are from science, be they evolution or just vaccinations. Some insist on avoiding birth control figuring that no members will have premarital sex and that married members should make more babies, hence more babies.
I could go on and on. My point is that you asked, "Am I missing anything here on either side?" YES, you are missing many things in favor of saying that one has "hope." Everyone deserves to know the truth, even if their religion is not a dangerous mind-control cult. Everyone needs to be encouraged to look at life's big questions and decide for themselves what to believe. That's way more important than some false hope.
Homer Simpson summed up going to church nicely when he said "What if we picked the wrong religion? Every week we're just making God madder and madder."
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cofty
There isn't even an internal logic in the analogy - Xanthippe
Ask and it shall be given.
There are vegetarians who refuse to eat meat as a matter of principle. They don't eat anything with a face.
Then there are veggies who think it is cool to be a veggie but they don't have a philosophical foundation for their position They eat some meat as it suits their preferences.
Similarily there are atheists who understand why they reject extraordinary claims about the supenatural. There are others who think being an atheist is cool but who still believe in spirit mediums and horoscopes and life after death.
It was a good analogy.
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LisaRose
I actually know people that attend church although they think God probably does not exist. They think if he doesn't, well the church helped them to be good people, so it was not a waste of time. If he does exist, well they did the best they could. I wouldn't call them Athiests though.
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Xanthippe
In a sense it does fit your views because just as a vegetarian wouldn't try a small piece of meat you would never ever examine extraordinary claims of the paranormal even though your philosophy is supposed to be evidence based. You would only allow the bearded magician to examine the claims.