The life differences between a good christian and good athiest (page 5)

zound

The reason would be dying for things that promote love. Such things like mercy, honestly, championing the cause of the poor and so on.

Jesus died because he called himself god. How is that being a martyr for the above mentioned things?

It wasn’t suicide; he was killed for clearing out the temple of religious leaders defrauding poor people and also that it was a part of the temple meant for all people, Jews and non-Jews to come to worship and debate about God. It’s also not erotic obsession type of love but a far deeper type than that. The principle of love! He was killed in the course of feeding the poor and trying to release them from religious oppression. He allowed it to happen however as the last statement of a life course well lived. This allowing it to happen is the sacrifice. He also didn’t vent anger at those who tortured him but forgave them. A good example in how to destroy enemies is by making them friends in such a way. One has to have love in them to a strong degree in order to do things like that, which inspires people to live and forgive themselves.

zound

If Jesus wasn't killed - but say just ascended to heaven when he was done with his ministry, and helping people etc as you described - would that make any difference to him inspiring you to forgive yourself etc?

Seraphim23

I’ll answer that with a question Zound if I may. When I have felt depressed or profoundly sad or even unloved, all of which I have experienced in my time when say a relationship broke up, or when my pet cat died and felt I didn’t do enough to help or prevent the things that occurred, I didn’t want the company of those who didn’t understand sadness or emotion but those who did. I wanted them to share my pain for them to feel some of my own agony so that I might feel some relief. Those protecting themselves from pain said things like `pull yourself together` or there are loads more fish ion the sea. They didn’t get down and dirty with me in my pain. Misery loves company. So when you’re depressed do you put happy clappy music on to cheer you up, or something melancholy? A teacher in armed combat who has never fought on the battle field might inspire a few a bit but one who has a leg blown off inspires more I dare say.

zound

Seraphim, do you want me to anser that question or is it rhetorical? In some cases I would put on happy music or a comedy to lift my mood, it depends.

To be honest, I don't really see your point. I'm surmising then that your anwser is it WOULD make a difference to you if jesus didn't die. If Jesus didn't die he wouldn't be able to condole you as well when you face death of loved ones or death yourself seeing as he didn't experience it himself - his response might be "just get over it"?

We're talking about a supernatural being here - why can he not know what it's like to die without actually dying?

Also how is this a fair comparison? Jesus was excecuted - most christians I would hope just die of sickness or old age.

You don't have to answer these questions - I would however give you a second opportunity to make your point...

Jeffro

EndofMysteries:

And if they happened to not have done all they wanted, they atleast have a hope.

The premise (Pascal's Wager) is stupid. It relies on the presumptions that there are only two options - Christian or non-Christian (often simplified to atheist), and that if there is an afterlife, it must be the one offered by the Christian religion.

What if Zeus is really the 'true' God? Better to be worshipping no one rather than following the competition.

What if there's a creator that hates the concept of 'worship' and just wants its creations to get along? Not good news for Christians.

What if everyone gets a happy afterlife regardless of religious beliefs? Everybody wins.

And what if there really is the 'Christian' deity, who wants 'mercy and not sacrifice'? Since there is no evidence for believing in a god or gods, any deity that would kill people for being rational is, frankly, a bit of a prick, and not at all consistent with a god that would either want or show mercy.

However, the most likely scenario, based on all the available evidence is that you're alive while you're alive, and then you're not.

Seraphim23

It was kind of rhetorical but I wasn’t talking about the blues, I was talking about depression. Anyhow yes it makes a difference to me, just saying `get over it` doesn’t really help or inspire. Jesus may well have known what it was like to die before he did, but I don’t and that’s the point. It wasn’t for him he died it was for others.

zound

I still don't get your point Seraphim - and I'd like to pin you down on this, as you said jesus didn't die for your sins.

We've established that he totally understands what you're going through when faced with death even if he didn't die himself. So no need for him to die in order to console you.

So please try and tell me the point of his death.

Jesus may well have known what it was like to die before he did, but I don’t and that’s the point. It wasn’t for him he died it was for others.

So you don't know what it's like to die, and this is the point - how is jesus death helping you? You can observe the death of millions if this is any help in understanding death.

Etude

EndofMysteries: I find the scenario you present interesting and yet a bit confusing because I don’t think the parallel you present is actually a parallel but diverging ideas instead. For example: You present two individuals leading an exemplary life but one (the religious one) dying with hope that the other (the atheist) dying without hope. Why must it be so? It doesn’t have to be. There are other possibilities. First of all, assuming that hope actually means something or that it has any possibility of bringing a different path after death, I don’t see why an atheist can’t hope that by preserving his DNA and with some sort of memory retrieval by a new scientific means that s/he can’t attain the hope to live again. There are cryogenic banks that preserve people today in the hope that science can revive them and restore their bodies again. That’s hope. Isn’t it?

What about the religious person who dies with hope and gets none because there was never a god to begin with who was going to bring a resurrection and a better life? At least for the atheist not having any hope and receiving none is not such a raw deal because, being dead, s/he would never know what did or did not happen. That would assume that the god who gives hope to the religious person would not revive the atheists just to torture him or her. The question of happiness based on a single outcome (resurrection) is meaningless. Happiness is a by-product of living, not dying. It is the way you lead your life that produces it. I think there’s probably a good degree of satisfaction at the end of one’s life, after having lived it well to not care what happens afterwards.

I don’t understand the idea of comparison between an atheist and a religious person, both living an exemplary life. It goes without saying that whether one believes in God or not, people can be moral and generous and kind. So, religion has nothing to do with those attributes. Why should that earn points for the religious individual and not for the atheist regardless of belief?

Thinking about the first option for the atheist, I think it’s just as good a deal for the theist if science were to find a way to bring all people back in some future. The problem would be that the religious person would be disappointed about who brought him or her back. Still, it’s better to be a live dog than a dead lion.

rawe

Hi EndofMysteries,

"any hope for another life"

Our survival is tied to our ability to plan ahead and work towards a goal. This often invovles self-denial and pain in the moment. Think of the simple act of preparing a meal -- the labor is expended first, then the reward is later. Likewise with hunting, sometimes incredible patience and endurance is required before we are finally rewarded. Of course we would do none of this if we couldn't imagine the future reward.

What though happens if we imagine a reward that will never be achieved? Is there any harm in that? Could anchillary benefits in the present, compenstate for lack of an final reward?

Cheers,

-Randy

The life differences between a good christian and good athiest

Share this