Fallacies about Faith

by tec 340 Replies latest jw friends

  • rawe
    rawe

    Hi Perry,

    "Perhaps her [Democratic Fox News Commentator, Kirsten Powers] testimony will shed some light on the kind of dynamic, interactive faith that Christians have . It is sometimes hard to explain except to describe the kinds of things that God does with it . Kirsten's story is pretty typical when God happens."

    Despite being an athiest myself, I believe God does exist, but only as a concept within the mind of believers. This makes God very personal and immediate and powerful as the individual. As believers group together in like-minded thought exchange God can become a shared concept and then as powerful and as enduring as the group itself.

    Notice how Kirsten describes her conversion in 2006: I woke up in what felt like a strange cross between a dream and reality. Jesus came to me and said 'Here I am.'

    The account goes on about her boyfriend praying for her, thinking they needed to break up, her inability to shake off the experience, etc. But... in the end, it is an internal experience, that cannot and should not be confused for objective truth about existence of God apart of what is going on in her mind. Atheist's too of course experience their non-belief, but more often than not you'll hear them explain it in terms of conclusions (even reluctantly so) they've reached after looking at available evidence.

    Cheers,

    -Randy

  • Perry
    Perry

    Just a few excerpts:

    “If there was one thing in which I was completely secure, it was that I would never adhere to any religion – especially to evangelical Christianity, which I held in particular contempt,”

    “I tried to write off the experience as misfiring synapses, but I couldn’t shake it. When I returned to New York a few days later, I was lost. I suddenly felt God everywhere and it was terrifying."

    In a Fox News Channel interview with Howard Kurtz, Powers explained the revelation to her “wasn’t a one-moment-kind-of-thing. It was something that over a year probably of going to church and studying the Bible and a lot of different things".

    What Kirsten began to "see" after her encounter with Jesus Christ personally, was God working in her life..... "a lot of different things"; as she puts it. New believers, those on their way to being believers, and eventually old-time believes are all alike in their astonishment at God's attention to detail in their lives. I've personally noticed that when God's moves in my life, he'll always tell me at least twice. If it's really important, he'll tell me thrice.

    The fact that when she called to tell her boyfriend about her encounter with God, it was at that moment BEFORE she cold tell him, that he related how he had been praying and felt led to break up with her because of the uneven yoking thingy....is just exactly the way God works. Bam, Bam ... right in a row to try and get your attention.

    “In even describing when I became a Christian, I just gave in. It wasn’t courageous. I didn’t have any choice. I kept trying to not believe and I kept just couldn’t avoid it. If I could have avoided it, I would have. There’s nothing convenient about it in my life in the world that I live in. It’s not like living in the South or living somewhere where everybody’s Christian. I live in a world where nobody’s a believer.”

    That is EXACTLY what happened to me. Irrestible Grace. We are saved by grace, through faith. One is the work of God, the other is the work of man. It is the "work" authorized by Jesus for Salvation.

    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. - Mark 16:16

    Acts16: “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - John 3: 18

    Once a person surrenders to Jesus, the Holy Spirit takes up residence within the believer and bears an internal permanent witness to the believer:

    The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.

    This is a precious knowing that the believer receives as a gift that comforts him throughout his/her life. It is totally different than the conclusion that an unbeliever may reach based on selective reasoning that "there is no God".

    Faith is not a conclusion as atheists judge it to be based on their own experience. It is a knowing. I believe this knowing irritates atheists and unsaved religionists alike.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Once a person surrenders to Jesus, the Holy Spirit takes up residence within the believer and bears an internal permanent witness to the believer:

    No not always permanent.

    See ex-christian.net for hundreds of testimonies to the contrary.

  • bohm
    bohm

    Cofty: but if they didnt hear an internal witness, jesus was clearly not in them, and so they could not have surrendered to jesus in the first place!

  • cofty
    cofty

    They did - then later they realised it was just a subjective emotional response to an appealing myth

  • Perry
    Perry

    "I kept trying to not believe and I couldn’t avoid it. If I could have avoided it, I would have."

    Notice how it became more work for her to not believe, than it did to believe. - That is God at work.

    Interesting isn't it?

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Perry,

    Rather than ascribe the sacred Holy Spirit, part of the Godhead, why don't you also look like to human psychology. I know it is very hard for me to negate God b/c I was raised in a religion to believe He exists. It depends upon the individual. Those raised by atheists/agnostics will likely not look for God. One would have to assemble many scientifc studies to prove it is the Holy Spirit. This is a form of cognitive therapy. Your brain wants to believe in the Holy Spirit or your earliest childhood memories include parental abuse and you think of Jehovah, and you think of God. This is neural programng in the brain.

    What do Moslems believe or HIndus? They have no Holy Spirit working in them. Too many believers here just go with their gut feelings without examining their underlying thougt processes. I don't know whether there is a God. Sometimes I feel maybe the Holy Spirit is real. Do I want to believe in a punishing God would would save only a small fragment of believers in a Jewish prophet? Hell, no. Is there something larger? I don't know. tt is too much for me. I always belief is my conscious choice. It never strikes me as external. Many Christians believe the same as I do. Most mainstream churches.

    My problem with the Holy Spirit is where is it when small children or anyone else has cancer or some other terrible illness. Where is the Holy Spirit when people are brutally rape or inflict with other violence? For the few times I sense it, can demand of God, Where were you in my hour of need? The Holy Spirit appears to be candy for believers. Oh, it feels so good. Open your eyes. Suffering poses severe problems.

  • bohm
    bohm

    yap, god at work.. no evidence convinced her.

    she ought to have her brain scanned. if it really went down that way i would be seriously afraid i might have a tumor or experience the onset of some neurological disorder.

  • rawe
    rawe

    Hi Perry,

    "The fact that when she called to tell her boyfriend about her encounter with God, it was at that moment BEFORE she cold tell him, that he related how he had been praying and felt led to break up with her because of the uneven yoking thingy....is just exactly the way God works. Bam, Bam ... right in a row to try and get your attention."

    I thought that was an interesting part of the story too. If God, exists in the mind of he believer, then one of the markers of the experience would be ego-centric. It is about the believer, because it is the believer. I see no reason to doubt the sequence here, i.e., that she had the 'come to me' as commanded by Jesus experience, was afraid to relate it to her boyfriend, then he reports the prayer to her, then she is further down the path towards belief.

    The sequence seems random, but would it be? If they were in a relationship and he was motivated to pray to see if they should break up or not, don't you think it would be reasonable to assume, discussions about faith and lack of it had been happening? And that such, may have been contributing to some mental stress on Kirsten? When former Christians become atheists they have already processed information about these sort of events, not the least of which is the conversion of Saul (later known as Paul) on the road to Damasucs (Acts 9).

    One immediate notices the fact Christians accept some and reject others, not because of believability of the experience itself, but the degree to which the one who had the experience is in agreement ones prior beliefs. Thus Saul/Paul experience is accepted. Kirsten experience is accepted. But the experience of Joseph Smith is rejected. The experience of someone who encounters an alien from a UFO is rejected.

    Cheers,

    -Randy

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    Tammy,

    I have given this thread 18 hours and three pages. I think everyone is unique. Many people make assuptions and generalisations. As a believer I don't care what asuumptions people come up with. I do care if my friend doesn't show me respect. So if my friend makes a wrong assumption about me I will correct them.

    If someone who is not genuinely interested in me makes a wrong assumption about me. I don't care, my freinds know the truth about me and that's what matters.

    My view of God is different from yours and most posters who matter to me know this. Some posters may say stupid things about you or me that aren't true. But any who read and genuinely want to know about us will dismiss what others say.

    Tammy, I think you do a good job on the board helping posters see your way of worshipping God. Recovering JWs need to see all the sides of an argument to help with their recovery, and learn to think for themselves.

    Well done keep up the good work. Peace and love to you too Kate xx

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