Fallacies about Faith

by tec 340 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Perry

  The Nations Worship the King

  Zech. 14:16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

  Just expanding on a part of tec openig post, the Millenium will be characterized by the earth having many nations and Jesus Christ ruling as The LORD in Jerusalem. When I first read this scripture I was amazed at what a far cry this picture was from the simplistic picture the WT sold me as a youth.
• 

  Berengaria

  So what do you think about feeding and comforting the poor Perry?
• 

  Perry

  I thought you wanted to be left alone?
• 

  Berengaria

  I don't want your religious zealotry to interfere with my secular government.

  You are one who believes the opposite. I'm curious how you justify your politics with your professed religious beliefs.
• 

  tec

  Lisa, I would never be offended that you skip over most of my posts and are not interested, and I appreciate your post and the kindness in your words, on this and the other thread.

  Perry, one of these times I will get back to you on the other thread about the Kingdom, or perhaps in pm. But just not tonight.

  Peace to you both,

  tammy
• 

  rawe

  Hi Tammy,

  One of the things I sometimes see is believers make statements of belief, as if, such were just basic fact. I mentioned this to Cold Steel, when he asserted that the Book of Mormon is a "translation."

  For example, you said... "There are atheists, agnostics, people of other beliefs/faiths/religion - who may enter the kingdom as subjects of the kingdom, based on their deeds."

  Says who? What is the basis for making such an assertive statement. To that you offered this.. "(as recorded in their books at the second resurrection), and according to the parable of the sheep and the goats (doing good to Christ by doing good to even the least of his brothers as the sheep; and the reverse as the goats)."

  Which just drives us around in a circle. Because the parable of the sheep and goats is just another statement of belief. And that to me is the big problem with building up a set of assertive statements that are not tied to anything concrete. When beliefs are unbounded, then, literally anything is possible. For example, perhaps God actually dislikes the sheep and favors the goats. That could be true, simply by asserting the parable of the sheep and goats has been corrupted by God's enemy.

  Although your original post didn't directly make this point -- I think you've hit upon something important to both groups. And that, is a sort of plea -- to be understood and stop using extreme examples. I'm an atheist, but I am not at all like Stalin or the Khmer Rouge. Likewise, although technically some Christian literally believe a non-Christian like Mahatma Gandhi is right now burning in hell -- for most who attend a Christian church the subject of hell and who is being punished there is not something often considered.

  Cheers,

  -Randy
• 

  Etude

  Tammy: Your topic is confusing. Gopher is right. In my experience, it is the theists who, for the most part, contend that good morals come from faith and belief in God in general. It is not just an incorrect assumption atheists make about what theists think. Whether atheists assume that or not, the point is that it is to a large degree what religious people contend in the first place. So, I fail to see your argument on that account or a valid denial of what atheists think.

  On your second point (everyone except Christians go to Hell), I grew up most of my life being indoctrinated by the Catholic, Protestants and the JW churches believing that this is the case for each of them. So, I don’t see the point of denying what atheists may believe about theists when in reality it is the theists that contend the very point you’re arguing against.
• 

  Qcmbr

  So far I still think despite what she says Tec is just pretending to want some form of bridge in understanding since she refuses to acknowledge that the bridge in knowledge already exists ( many former believers become non believers and therefore know not only what some believers think about atheism but also what happens on the other side , what caused them to loose belief and therefore what they think about believers - critically what they think about their former self.) Tec is not qualified to make these supposed fallacies. It's as presumptuous as me , a former Mormon , making a thread about what JWs think about Mormons and then trying to lead that discussion as though I knew more than you.

  Lisa , you talked about red flags, things that prompt strong responses and I think these are more telling about the relationships here.

  • By all means put forward opinions but be prepared to back them up with more than just your imagination if you want your point to be discussed.
  • If you have little more than faith to go on for a post then stating that at the same time goes a long way to defusing a tense situation.Hearing voices in your head is a variation on faith not rock solid evidence ( unless the voice gives us something novel and useful such as an instant cure for headaches!)
  • When someone disagrees with a cherished belief it may feel like they are negating you, they aren't , separating self from belief allows a more dispassionate discussion . Some believers make the comment more about themselves than about the idea and the offences follow naturally.
  • Recognise that as a believer the threads about belief are yours to derail or maintain. Normally , where a sincere question is asked, many people will go to great lengths to explain a fallacy, give a source of scholarly information , give a well thought out response etc. the flames occur when , despite answers a stonewall or whinge occurs. There is good grace in admitting new information has been presented and withdrawing to consider.
  • Remember former believers understand those feelings of emotion, the thrill of faith, the allure of a loving community of like minded thinkers, some even know what it's like to hear voices, have thoughts that feel otherworldy and mystical and so on. Most non believers aren't there for casual, knee jerk reasons but have trodden further down a hard and painful path of confronting their perceptions with logic, evidence and intense introspection. Many of us are gutted by the lies and feel zealous about exposing them.
• 

  Perry

  

  "Former atheist Kirsten Powers is now a Bible-believing Christian champion"

  When a person encounters God.... it changes them permanently. Kirsten Powers was an uber-liberal atheist top news reporter. Her testimony mirrors my own in many respects. When I encountered God I had just finished my education in Sociology. My interest in Social Work to help and comfort the poor was very high.

  Perhaps her testimony will shed some light on the kind of dynamic, interactive faith that Christians have . It is sometimes hard to explain except to describe the kinds of things that God does with it . Kirsten's story is pretty typical when God happens.

  http://www.wnd.com/2013/12/fox-news-atheist-democrat-i-met-jesus/
• 

  Qcmbr

  Yes, people who have moved from atheism to belief also have great insight in this sort of discussion. There are very valid arguments to be made that a life lived too cynically is devoid of potential richness that religion and faith often offers.