i wish more churches would preach truth like this (page 15)

bohm

i sometimes feel the early christian church got boored peddling ordinary bullshit to their members and desided to see if they could come up with a description of god that was so sick and amoral people would not believe it.

admittedly, i cant see how one can do better than gods eternal torture-chamber, but apparently they did not try hard enough.

Simon

So his voice tammy: Male or female? American? Jewish? BBC Queens English?

What exactly does he say? Please - you claim the creator of the cosmos is talking to you ... tell us what he / she / it sounds like in detail.

myelaine

dear jgnat...

in response to your comment about viscious things spouting from doctrine...yes when you see the doctrine as God punishing sin with eternal torment in hell it does sound viscious. However...all the punishment for sin has been poured out on Jesus. God doesn't punish man for his sin Jesus took all of it (literally the sins of the world) That is why the bible doesn't say God is going to punish sinners for eternity in hell. Those in hell are there because they didn't want salvation. Jesus said as much...they didn't want to come into the Light...they stayed in darkness, condemned.

what is more viscious...being upfront about an individuals (possible) fate of eternal torment in hell so that an informed decision based on what the bible teaches can be made OR being mislead by being told that there is no eternal torment in hell there is annihilation?(sweeping all that nasty stuff under the carpet)

one is monumental ear-tickling, really.

The consequence of persons wrong decision is held in stark contrast.

It's despicable. I won't hesitate to mention how many people have been misled by the WTBTS and their dogmatic stance on hell. Those are already showing the consequences of buying into satan's scheme...already HELD in bondage to darkness. initially it sounds better but, that is the means of something designed to tickle the ear.

love michelle

unstopableravens

Michelle, hi, did you get to listen to the sermon. I would like your thoughts

tec

So, Unstop... are you still not going to respond to the questions that I asked?

Was Christ burning in hell? Were all the people in hell - including all of Israel - in hell BEFORE the judgment? Do people get resurrected from hell... to be judged THEN... and then thrown back into hell?

You recall the points about how different words are all translated hell. (hades, sheol, gehenna... etc)

Is the lake of fire hell... or is hades hell?

How is hell thrown into hell?

What about all the verses that specifically speak about destruction?

You said that Christ spoke more about hell... than heaven... perhaps so... but He spoke more about the Kingdom, far more about the Kingdom, than 'hell' (hell in brackets because it was most often translated from hades)

Because I already know that we can go back and forth on the scripture. But you keep throwing out other verses without responding to these questions. These questions will remain until/unless they are answered. Throwing out new verses but not answering the questions that show that hell doctrine makes no sense... doesn't move the discussion forward.

So the verse that you are now talking about:

(but lets start at verse 9)

They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who decieved them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormneted day and night for ever and ever.

So first a point in the literal reading of the verse: the people were devoured by the fire that came from heaven. But the 'they' in the 'they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever' refers here to the devil, the beast and the false prophet.

Now a question:

Unless you believe the 'beast' is a literal living beast... (ten horns, seven heads, one head being wounded but healed)... how can it be literally tormented in the first place? Much less for ever and ever?

(The word used for forever may also be used for 'age'; or a time period. Though I think it is most often used as forever... as in for all time. But I believe I mentioned earlier how the devil (a spirit being) would take longer to be destroyed by fire, as he is stronger than those who were resurrected just enough to be given life... or to be judged, and thrown into the lake of fire)

Keep also in mind this... the last enemy to be DESTROYED is death. Death and hades tossed into the lake of fire... that is where they are destroyed. Not tormented for ever and ever... but destroyed, no more, done.

I'm not trying to 'win' points or anything with you, Unstop. Just want you to look at these things, THINK about whether or not this doctrine that others are teaching you about God... makes sense; and preferably to ask and hear the answer for yourself.

We can move on to another point if you like. You don't have to answers those questions on the board if you would rather not. But hopefully you will think about them yourself, at least.

Peace to you,

Your servant and a slave of Christ,

tammy

alecholmesthedetective

Also, in Mark 11:24 , Jesus tells his disciples: "Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer , believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

Sure yeah

tec

For Simon:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/private/266325/1/Does-the-Spirit-who-is-Christ-speak-and-how#.Ust0qRwsyqU

The thread was locked, and certainly there are other threads that I could link to on that topic if I go looking. But in order to attempt to keep this thread on topic (and I did not go 'there' here, even though others seem to want me to)... I linked to that instead, at least to start. I know i answered that question somewhere, and I will answer it again if you want... and Unstop doesn't mind the derailment... but I am trying to keep Unstop and I on our discussion.

Which is one reason I did not answer Jgnat's question, as I think Unstop and I have plenty to discuss without adding another point of disagreement, though there will be some agreements as well. I prefer the apostles creed over the nicene creed... but I prefer (and will follow) Christ over any creed. Or doctrine, or denomination, or religion, or men, or teachings/traditions of men.

Peace to you both,

tammy

designs

Pope Francis I just gave the heave ho to Hell, only took the RCC 1700 years but better late than never...

unstopableravens

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Where did Old Testament believers go when they died?

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Question: "Where did Old Testament believers go when they died?"
Answer: The Old Testament teaches life after death, and that all people went to a place of conscious existence called Sheol. The wicked were there ( Psalm 9:17 ; 31:17 ; 49:14 ; Isaiah 5:14 ), and so were the righteous ( Genesis 37:35 ; Job 14:13 ; Psalm 6:5 ; 16:10 ; 88:3 ; Isaiah 38:10 ).
The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Prior to Christ’s resurrection, Luke 16:19-31 shows Hades to be divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (heaven) and a place of torment where the rich man was (hell). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called Paradise ( Luke 23:43 ). The rich man’s place of torment is called Gehenna in Mark 9:45 . Between Paradise and Gehenna (the two districts of Hades) there was “a great gulf fixed” ( Luke 16:26 ).
Jesus is described as having descended into Hades after His death ( Acts 2:27 , 31 ; cf. Ephesians 4:9 ). At the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it seems that the believers in Hades (i.e., the occupants of Paradise) were moved to another location. Now, Paradise is above rather than below ( 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 ).
Today, when a believer dies, he is “present with the Lord” ( 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 ). When an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to the torment side of Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire ( Revelation 20:13-15 ). Recommended Resources: Heaven by Randy Alcorn and Logos Bible Software.

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unstopableravens

hi tec, i tryed to paste an atricle that gives the answers because its difficult to give long answers to your question. i think the best way to see hell and the lake of fire is this. when a person commites a crime he is arrested, where does he go ? to jail(hell) than he sees the jugde than hes thrown in prison(lake of fire)i do not think the account at luke 16 was a parable. i believe it was a real account. no parable that jesus ever spoke of used real names. here he used real names. if you notice in the account the rich man and the begger lazerus where seperated by a chasm.one there was torment and the other peace.

i wish more churches would preach truth like this

Where did Old Testament believers go when they died?

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