The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday (page 60)

cofty

The fact that God doesn't intervein to stop natural calamities has nothing to do with a relative importance of present life suffering versus the "eternal reward". - Eden

Compare..

God never intended for material life to be "perfect"...The true life will be attained in the spiritual realm. - Eden

Also

that doesn't implicate that God is causing it to teach us a lesson or to better us as people - Eden

Compare...

we can make the most of the time we live on the face of the earth to learn about love and compassion, enjoy this life and its gifts the best we can, and prepare ourselves for what comes in the realm where natural disasters don't happen - the heavenly realm. - Eden

If your god had any care about physical suffering he would have prevented the Tsunami.

You have a negative view of physical life and humanity.

You may want to take a little time to think about your argument and iron out the contradictions.

caliber

EdenOne

I am very impressed by many reasonable conclusions you have drawn

The important thing anyway is mankinds search for God not having perfects answer to all our doubts ....IMHO

1)natural calamities has nothing to do with a relative importance of present life suffering versus the "eternal reward"

2)And, as a colateral result of natural disasters, sometimes natural calamities bring out the best in people, which is a testimony to the goodness and altruism that we usually don't see much of it in nature, and is a reflexion of the divine spark within each one of us

3)God offers hope which helps us a great deal to cope with the horrific outcomes of some natural disasters.

4)Accidents happen all the time, in every place, and God doesn't cause them, doesn't stop them, no one is to blame for them. Life happens. Death happens. What God ensures is salvation for those who put faith in his salvation through Christ.

5)There's no "evil" in nature, for "evil" implies an intention, a design. There's no such thing in the natural world, an intent to hurt, to cause pain and destruction.

Who came up with this weird term "natural evil "anyway... does anyone know ? Evil means intent to harm I made this same point earlier

adamah

Eden said-

Suffering does matter to God, and all the more the suffering of those he loves.

Including his own son, Jesus?

Remember this one: "God so loved the World, He gave his only begotten Son...."

So let's see: God allows Jesus to suffer and be tortured to death at the hands of men, since God really loved Jesus, his firstborn Son, and allowing it to happen shows us how much God loves the rest of us, where Jesus' death was required by God in order to repay a debt owed to God due to Adam's fruit-eating binge?

Yes, I too often show my other children how much I love them all by killing my favorite child.... I also ask them to kill their favorite pets (but don't actually make them follow through with it, stopping them at the last moment) just so they can appreciate the magnamity of my love for them, too, to see what a loving great Father I am.

Hmmm, here's a novel concept: could it be that Xian theology is absolutely perversely and psychopathically NUTSO, and completely morally-bankrupt, to boot?

Or are non-believers such ethical giants in comparison to believers that it only makes it appear that way?

Adam

cofty

"Sorry to all the hundreds of thousands of victims of the tsunami. Don't take it personally, you were collateral damage.

By the way I wasn't to blame, it's not like I invented earthquakes - oh shit.

Be assured that you did not die in vain, your broken corpses triggered some feelings of altruism in some prosperous western protestants so that was nice.

Well anyway see you in the afterlife. You were all born-again christians weren't you? No! Oh well your pain is just beginning" God

Summary so far...

EdenOne

Adamah:

So let's see: God allows Jesus to suffer and be tortured to death at the hands of men, since God really loved Jesus, his firstborn Son, and allowing it to happen shows us how much God loves the rest of us, where Jesus' death was required by God in order to repay a debt owed to God due to Adam's fruit-eating binge?

The above quote shows me how much you're still in JW land. Jesus' death was a symbol of redemption, something that we can look up to and put faith in it. If God didn't hold back from us his very own son, he will also surely extend us salvation. There's no "adamic debt to repay to God". There is simply a sonship towards God that each one individually must regain. Besides, Jesus volunteered for that mission, didn't he?

Or are non-believers such ethical giants in comparison to believers that it only makes it appear that way?

Now, now....are we having delusions of megalomany now?

Eden

caliber

When something tragic happens in our lives, we ask God the question, “Why?” because it is our natural response. What we are really asking Him,

though, is not so much “Why, God?” as “Why me, God?” This response indicates two flaws in our thinking. First, as believers we operate under the

impression that life should be easy, and that God should prevent tragedy from happening to us. When He does not, we get angry with Him. Second,

when we do not understand the extent of God’s sovereignty, we lose confidence in His ability to control circumstances, other people, and the way

they affect us. Then we get angry with God because He seems to have lost control of the universe and especially control of our lives. When we lose

faith in God’s sovereignty, it is because our frail human flesh is grappling with our own frustration and our lack of control over events

Cofty ....is lack of personal control a major issue with you on this matter ? ...be honest

Would I be angry if a major event struck my life and ponder ..why ? How could I not feel panic or wonderment of ....why is this happening to me ?

Fear is a strong emotion... to quote my father once again who served on the front line of WW2 "they talk about war hero's... but whoever

said they weren't scared are nothing but a damned liars !!!!

EdenOne

Cofty:

"Sorry to all the hundreds of thousands of victims of the tsunami. Don't take it personally, you were collateral damage.

By the way I wasn't to blame, it's not like I invented earthquakes - oh shit.

Be assured that you did not die in vain, your broken corpses triggered some feelings of altruism in some prosperous western protestants so that was nice.

Well anyway see you in the afterlife. You were all born-again christians weren't you? No! Oh well your pain is just beginning" God

Appeal to ridicule fallacy.

Eden

zound

Just go down to a local childrens hospital then come back here and tell us all about how god is completely moral by not intervening.

EdenOne

zound

Just go down to a local childrens hospital then come back here and tell us all about how god is completely moral by not intervening.

I don't need to go that far to see that kind of scene. The non-interventionism of God doesn't make him moral; doesn't make him amoral either. It's the hope that he offers that makes Him worthy of awe; It's the fact that we, humans, can show empathy, compassion, selfless interest in others, something we hardly see in nature, where the norm is competition, selfishness and mercilesness, that reveals that God operates within and through each one of us, even those who don't believe He exists.

Eden

zound

It's the hope that he offers that makes Him worthy of awe

Wouldn't this by number 15?

15. Suffering will be unimportant compared to eternal rewards

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

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