Boy Hect, you had the nerve to make fun of my post about your "leader" question. Look at your response!!!
Typical JW Apologist
by TheStar 185 Replies latest jw friends
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Dutchie
Yes, Hector, I am aware that in the Bible "Leader" is not exclusively referring to Jesus Christ. However, those that it tells us to recognize as leaders speak to us in the name of Christ. They speak truth to us. They do not make constant predictions that do not come true. They do not encourage us to let our loved ones die by withholding life saving blood. They would not encourage dissolution of families by a shunning requirement.
There are any things that the witnesses do and teach that are fine and beneficial. I recognize that. However, witnesses teach a legislated morality that hinges on your being expelled from the congregation if you misstep. If does not allow you to explore the person you are because you are always afraid that if you do wrong you will lose your family and your friends as they will be required to shun you. You may think that this is an example of love and the society certainly teaches that, but is it really?
Anyway, I know I've gone way off the subject.
What were we talking about anyway?
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hector3000
>>They speak truth to us. They do not make constant predictions that do not come true.
Reply: No they don't, and neither do JW's. For us to make predictions, we would have to originate prophecy, and we don't.
They do not encourage us to let our loved ones die by withholding life saving blood.
Reply: The converse is just as applicable, so this statement must be taken for what it is, a simple ad hominem.
They would not encourage dissolution of families by a shunning requirement.
Witnesses teach a legislated morality that hinges on your being expelled from the congregation if you misstep.Reply: Biblically, you cannot be a Christian, and NOT shun.
And yes, I can back all of the above. -
hawkaw
Hect,
I know you want to keep going and that is fine. But for an easier read use the "quote" function. Put [] brackets around the word "quote" before whatever quotation you are using. Then after the quotation use the square brackets again around the word "/quote". Note I put a "backslash" before the word quote.
It will make for easier reading for you and for everyone else. And of course your posts will look very professional.
Have a nice day and again thanks for admitting the WTS kinda blew it on the UN scandal. I know it took a lot for you to admit what you did. Impressive.
hawk
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hector3000
[Have a nice day and again thanks for admitting the WTS kinda blew it on the UN scandal. I know it took a lot for you to admit what you did. Impressive.]
Reply: Amazing, but your treatment of what I said has been homogenized by the hawk-factory:)
But, this explains exactly how incorrectly you read everything you that you do. -
Quotes
(Well, I am going to regret getting pulled down to hector3000's level, but he makes it so easy. Here is a blatant ad-hominem attack against the web-guru genious that is hector3000, who is, judging by his website, the worlds best web designer... not.)
Well hector3000, I see you are unable to follow Hawk's simple and direct instructions about how to designate a QUOTE in your posts. (I believe I also mentioned this in this thread yesterday.) You have obviously given his well intentioned attempt to help you format your posts for clarity about as much study and intelligent thought that you have given to the rest of this thread, that is, a quick scan and a jump to the wrong conclusion.
Perhaps if there was a Watchtower article about it you would be able to understand? I mean, that is, if we spent two or three weeks studying it, paragraph by paragraph, in a question-and-answer (whoops) I mean supplied-questions-and-supplied-answers format.
Let's try it now.
Myriads of Joyful Brothers Enjoy the Fruitage of Clearly Formatted Posts
Paragraph one: To indicate a quote in a post, many brothers and sisters have found that they can use the quote tag. That is, they use an opening square bracket, i.e. [ and then the word quote, and finally a closing square brakcet i.e. ]. Within the posting text message boxt, the resulting text looks something like this (except without the space between the brackets and the word quote) [ quote ]. Similarly, these same brothers indicate the end of the quote by using the close quote tag, and placing this tag at the end of the quoted material.
Paragrpah two: Some people of the world incorrectly think that simply enclosing the quoted material within square brackets is all that is required. Earnest students of the bible know that this can not be correct, as the resulting text is not clear. The following sample make this point clear.
[This is a sample quote as identified by people of the Nations]
This is a correctly formatted quote, following the quote directions of Jehovah's organization
Paragraph 3: Due to technical limitations, we must show an example of using tags using an imaginary tag called "testtag". Here is how sincere brothers would use the imaginary "testtag" in the same way that they would use the "quote" tag when posting. Truly we are thankful to Jehovah for providing this spiritual food to us at the proper time![testtag]This is the cut-and-paste quote material here[/testtag]
Paragraph 4: Those more advanced in their studies have moved on from the simple "quote" tag and have learned to use other tags. Surely all earnest truth seekers could benefit from the study and knowledge of these tags:
"b" makes text bold
"i" makes text italic
"red" makes text red
"blue" makes text blue===========================
For interesting Watchtower Society literature quotes, complete with references but without any editorial, check out:
http://Quotes.JehovahsWitnesses.com -
Dutchie
Hi Hector:
Look what I found for you:
*** Watchtower 1972 April 1 p.197 'They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them' ***
People today can view the creative works. They have at hand the Bible, but it is little read or understood. So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET"
These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? ... This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses. ... Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a "prophet" of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record.
True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved ... In view of this strong bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A.D. 1914..."
Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of "Christianity".
Not to mention, the infamous "Millions Now Living Will Never Die".
Who originated that, Hector?
So, do they believe they are prophets or not? Do they originate prophesy, i.e., the years 1914, 1975, etc.
Hector, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, well..........
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hector3000
Often when the WTS uses the word "prophet" concerning themselves, you will notice that the word is surrounded by quotation marks, indicating not a seer, but a prophet in a quasi-sense. It is just like the Billy Graham is called a prophet (see amazon.com's "A Prophet With Honor : The Billy Graham Story" by William Martin)
and another Church leader, Klemp (see amazon.com's "Autobiography of a Modern Prophet"
by Harold Klemp). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language uses the word *prophet* also as "A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression" and "The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause." This is how the word prophet is used of these men in a quasi-sense, just like JW's use it.
Joseph Smith is one that "originates" prophecy, as he makes them up. JW's take TRUE Bible prophecy and chronology and apply them to our day, much like everyone else has done.
Let us take a look at the Christian New Testament view of False Prophets:
Matt 7:15: False Prophets (hereafter FP) are ravenous wolves.
Matt 24:24: FP perform miracles (See Good News Bible)
Acts 13:6: FP's are likened to "sorcerors."
2 Peter 2:1: FP's teach "untrue doctrines" TEV
This does not describe JW's at all, in fact, it sounds more like a charismatic revival.
JW's do not refer to themselves as prophets, and they do not make prophecies, they have speculated because the Bible encourages that.
They don't perform miracles or do sorcery.
They almost exclusively teach Biblical doctrines, not "untrue ones" like trinitarian xtianity.
If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, then it is nominal xtianity that are the real false prophets. -
funkyderek
hector3000 said:
JW's do not refer to themselves as prophets, and they do not make prophecies, they have speculated because the Bible encourages that.
Where exactly does the Bible encourage such speculation? Matthew 25:13 says quite clearly "you do not know the day or the hour."How are the following quotes from Watchtower publications to be taken as anything other than prophecies?
"We see no reason for changing the figures-nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." - Zion's Watch Tower, July 15, 1894, p. 266
"1925 shall mark the resurrection of the faithful worthies of old....based upon the promises set forth in the divine Word, we must reach the positive and indisputable conclusion that millions now living will never die." - Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 97
Perhaps they were just providing a speculative interpretation of biblical prophecy. That's not what they said though.
"The interpretation of prophecy, therefore, is not from man, but is from Jehovah; and Jehovah causes events to come to pass in fulfillment of the prophecy in due time." - The Watchtower, May 1, 1938. p. 143
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But if you pray all your sins are hooked upon the sky
Pray and the heathen lie will disappear
Prayers they hide the saddest view
(Believing the strangest things, loving the alien)
-- David Bowie, Loving The Alien -
Will Power
They almost exclusively teach Biblical doctrines, not "untrue ones" like trinitarian xtianity.
You only think that they are not untrue because the WT says that they are true!
You talk about "prophets" in a sense but neglect the out right assertions of Jehovah using their lips!
What was the masthead inside the Awake for years and years about the CREATOR'S PROMISE THAT THOSE WHO WERE ALIVE IN 1914 WILL NEVER DIE?Now that they have changed the creator's promise to a whole new generation of new light teachings. How do you think this creator feels about the WT making him out to be an indian giver? (no offense to native americans)
Hector, most everyone here feels sorry for you. Most have walked in your shoes, from door to door, and got to the point where they were just too dizzy from all the round & around & around & around of WT teachings. They just had to stop and really look and listen to what they believed. You should take a few hours and really read the words that the WT prints, not just what you think they are saying.
Let me know when you start pukin. Once you do you won't ever be able to look at that vomit in the same way. And you certainly won't return "in a sense" if you have any.
Good place to research WT literature - no commentary here, that you can cross reference in your own library
http://quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com/edited to add web site