by TheStar 185 Replies latest jw friends
[Willp..Although the term ‘excommunication’ does not appear in Scripture, the concept is clearly present.
"just as other words like trinity and spaghetti are not in the bible therefore they were not taught and are false teachings. Pick & choose, pick & choose"]
Reply: A) This is from a trinitarian publication
B) We have a semantic equivalents in the Bible for this, where do not have any for the trinity.
Hector,
In the first century persons were not disfellowshipped and shunned for refusing to accept that 1914 is the year of Jesus invisable presence and that the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society is the "faithful discreet slave". The had no Watch Towers, "Questions From Readers", Kingdom Ministry articles, elder manuals, Branch procedures booklets and so forth. Clearly the Good News has been changed and any who do not go along with it are disfellowshipped. This is a serious misapplication of 1 Corinthians chapter 5. Read the whole chapter and see the context.
There is a difference between following the rules and regulations of a publishing company and doing the will of god as outlined in the holy scriptures.
You have to accept EVERYTHING they say, even those things that are unique to them or face excommunication.
Hector, I hate it when I am told that the Bible does not say something, but it is "implied". Either something is stated therein or its not. Thats how the witnesses teach "organization". They claim that it is implied. You know the sad fact is that you can twist scriptures to show practically anything.
If I wanted to smoke illegal drugs, someone once showed me a scriptures that said its okay. Anything you want to back up, there is a scripture for it.
Pick and Choose???!!! The WTBTS is famous for picking and choosing and ignoring those scripture that do not fit its dogma. Don't get me started!
The Bible could not mention spaghetti. It was invented in China many centuries later.
Oh and another thing, I was reading in the Bible the other day and it says that you have to empty your bank accounts andsend all your money to me. I'll get you the scriptures later that say this. I'd appreciate small denominations.
The wheels on the bus go round and round....
LOL@DB. Hey DB, It's clear as a bell, Hector says they are a "prophet" not a prophet. [8>]
*** Watchtower 1982 October 1 p.26-27 Be as Men Who Are Facing Har-Magedon Unafraid ***[Emphasis Added]7 Jeremiah was to perform the part of a full-grown man, for what his God inspired him to write was to be of importance to all mankind, even today. A “prophet to the nations” is what Jehovah made him. (Jeremiah 1:5) Now today, if anything, there needs to be a “prophet to the nations,” as patriotic self-willed nations are being inexorably gathered to an all-deciding showdown at Har–Magedon. Not that the God-given message of the modern “prophet to the nations” will be successful in turning them from a course that leads to their sure destruction, but there are human individuals involved. Such individuals without number, on being warned, would not want to perish with the nations of which they are citizens. If these can do anything about it, they do not want to be caught fighting against the Almighty God just in the interest of human self-government. In behalf of such right-hearted individuals Jehovah has considerately raised up his “prophet to the nations.” Jehovah has done this during this “time of the end,” since World War I ended on November 11, 1918.—Daniel 12:4.
8 In behalf of such individuals who at heart seek God's rule instead of man's rule, the "prophet" whom Jehovah has raised up has been, not an individual man as in the case of Jeremiah, but a class. The members of this class are, like the prophet-priest Jeremiah, wholly dedicated to Jehovah God through Christ and, by the begettal of Jehovah's holy spirit, they have been made part of "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession."
(1 Peter 2:9) At this late date there is a mere remnant of this “prophet” class yet on earth. The “war of the great day of God the Almighty” at Har–Magedon could not start before this composite “prophet” ends his work.
Jeremiah was a prophet to the nations and we are the modern day prophet to the nations but we are merely "prophets" and in no way claim to be a prophet like Jeremiah.
See it's clear as a bell. [8>] Poor Hector it really isn't his fault, he's just doing what mommy said he should, defend his mommy regardless.
Dear Brothers, we are all familiar with the scripture at Luke 16:13 which says:
“No house servant can be a slave to two masters; for, either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other. You cannot be slaves to God and to riches.”
What does this mean, Hector? Why it seems that you have to pick one. Your job or the kingdom work. You cannot slave for two masters just as the scriptures say. What will you choose brother?
Well verse 14 goes on to say:
“Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things and they began to sneer at him.”
Why did they sneer?
Well verse 15 will tell us why. It says:
“You are those who declare yourself righteous before men, but God know your heart.”
Yes, God knows your heart. He knows that you may be consumed by money. Why even if you are not wealthy does that mean that you do not worship money? No it doesn’t. Have you contributed any of your wealth to the Faithful and Discreet Slave lately or are you hoarding it? Brother we know the end is near, right around the corner, and so your money will soon be worthless. But we, the Faithful and Discreet Slave can use that money. You see, brothers, just in case the end does not come as soon as we think, we are expanding the farm in Patterson, New York, to allow for growth for an additional 10 years (just in case you know).
For emphasis brother, remember the scripture at Ecclesiastics 5:10: "A mere lover of silver will not be satisfied with just silver neither any lover of wealth with income. This too is vanity." Do we want to be guilty of vanity?
Now Hector, since it been firmly established in previous posts that I claim to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave, wouldn’t it be wise of all responsible, mature Christians to send their money to me?
Hector, I just saw this:
"And when have you known this to happen? I was around in 1975, and we were instructed to ignore what some brothers were speculating then. It seems not a firm as you suggest."
All aopologist for the watchtower say the same thing. I was around in 1975 too. I remember people putting off dental work, foreoing lifesaving operation, cashing in insurance policies, picking out the house they would move into after Armageddon. I don't know where you lived but what you experienced was certainly in the minority. I know the brothers in Europe felt the same way as did most of the brothers here. The WTBTS can deny it all they want to and you can help them, but I know that they predicted 1975 as the date. I know it because I heard it!
Not only was Dutchie around in 1975 to hear it herself Hector but here are the watchtowers that prove it was the Governing Body that gave the brothers the idea that the end would come in 1975. Hello the bothers didn't make this up on their own. If anyone should know, you should that faithful brothers and sisters don't dare lift a finger unless it's stamped and sealed with the Governing Bodies approval.
Here ya go Hector start with this Watchtower.
*** Watchtower 1968 August 15 pp.494-501 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?WHAT about all this talk concerning the year 1975? Lively discussions, some based on speculation, have burst into flame during recent months among serious students of the Bible. Their interest has been kindled by the belief that 1975 will mark the end of 6,000 years of human history since Adam's creation. The nearness of such an important date indeed fires the imagination and presents unlimited possibilities for discussion.
...
29 After much of the mathematics and genealogies, really, of what benefit is this information to us today? Is it not all dead history, as uninteresting and profitless as walking through a cemetery copying old dates off tombstones? After all, why should we be any more interested in the date of Adam's creation than in the birth of King Tut? Well, for one thing, if 4,026 is added to 1,968 (allowing for the lack of a zero year between C.E. and B.C.E.) one gets a total of 5,993 years, come this autumn, since Adam's creation. That means, in the fall of the year 1975, a little over seven years from now (and not in 1997 as would be the case if Ussher's figures were correct), it will be 6,000 years since the creation of Adam, the father of all mankind!
ADAM CREATED AT CLOSE OF "SIXTH DAY"
30 Are we to assume from this study that the battle of Armageddon will be all over by the autumn of 1975, and the long-looked-for thousand-year reign of Christ will begin by then? Possibly, but we wait to see how closely the seventh thousand-year period of man's existence coincides with the sabbathlike thousand-year reign of Christ. If these two periods run parallel with each other as to the calendar year, it will not be by mere chance or accident but will be according to Jehovah's loving and timely purposes. Our chronology, however, which is reasonably accurate (but admittedly not infallible), at the best only points to the autumn of 1975 as the end of 6,000 years of man's existence on earth. It does not necessarily mean that 1975 marks the end of the first 6,000 years of Jehovah's seventh creative "day." Why not? Because after his creation Adam lived some time during the "sixth day," which unknown amount of time would need to be subtracted from Adam's 930 years, to determine when the sixth seven-thousand-year period or "day" ended, and how long Adam lived into the "seventh day." And yet the end of that sixth creative "day" could end within the same Gregorian calendar year of Adam's creation. It may involve only a difference of weeks or months, not years.
31 In regard to Adam's creation it is good to read carefully what the Bible says. Moses in compiling the book of Genesis referred to written records or "histories" that predated the Flood. The first of these begins with Genesis 1:1 and ends at Genesis 2:4 with the words, "This is the history of the heavens and the earth . . . " The second historical document begins with Genesis 2:5 and ends with Ge verse two of chapter five. Hence we have two separate accounts of creation from slightly different points of view. In the second of these accounts, in Genesis 2:19, the original Hebrew verb translated "was forming" is in the progressive imperfect form. This does not mean that the animals and birds were created after Adam was created. Genesis 1:20-28 shows it does not mean that. So, in order to avoid contradiction between Ge chapter one and chapter two, Genesis 2:19, 20 must be only a parenthetical remark thrown in to explain the need for creating a "helper" for man. So the progressive Hebrew verb form could also be rendered as "had been forming."-See Rotherham's translation (Ro), also Leeser's (Le).
32 These two creation accounts in the book of Genesis, though differing slightly in the treatment of the material, are in perfect agreement with each other on all points, including the fact that Eve was created after Adam. So not until after this event did the sixth creative day come to an end. Exactly how soon after Adam's creation is not disclosed. "After that [Adam and Eve's creation] God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth day." (Gen. 1:31) After the sixth creative day ends, the seventh one begins.
33 This time between Adam's creation and the beginning of the seventh day, the day of rest, let it be noted, need not have been a long time. It could have been a rather short one. The naming of the animals by Adam, and his discovery that there was no complement for himself, required no great length of time. The animals were in subjection to Adam; they were peaceful; they came under God's leading; they were not needing to be chased down and caught. It took Noah only seven days to get the same kinds of animals, male and female, into the Ark. (Gen. 7:1-4) Eve's creation was quickly accomplished, 'while Adam was sleeping.' (Gen. 2:21) So the lapse of time between Adam's creation and the end of the sixth creative day, though unknown, was a comparatively short period of time. The pronouncement at the end of the sixth day, "God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good," proves that the beginning of the great seventh day of the creative week did not wait until after Adam and Eve sinned and were expelled from the Garden of Eden.
1975! . . . AND FAR BEYOND!
34 Bible chronology is an interesting study by which historic events are placed in their order of occurrence along the stream of time. The Watch Tower Society over the years has endeavored to keep its associates abreast with the latest scholarship that proves consistent with historic and prophetic events recorded in the Scriptures. Major problems in sacred chronology have been straightened out either due to fulfillment of Bible prophecies or by reason of archaeological discoveries or because better Bible translations convey more clearly the records of the original languages. However, several knotty problems of chronology of a minor nature are not yet resolved. For example, at the time of the exodus from Egypt when Jehovah changed the beginning of the year from autumn time on the secular calendar to spring time on the sacred calendar, was there, in the Jewish calendar, a loss or a gain of six months?-Ex. 12:1, 2.
35 One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man's existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that "concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the "day and hour"!
36 Even if one cannot see beyond 1975, is this any reason to be less active? The apostles could not see even this far; they knew nothing about 1975. All they could see was a short time ahead in which to finish the work assigned to them. (1 Pet. 4:7) Hence, there was a ring of alarm and a cry of urgency in all their writings. (Acts 20:20; 2 Tim. 4:2) And rightly so. If they had delayed or dillydallied and had been complacent with the idea the end was some thousands of years off they would never have finished running the race set before them. No, they ran hard and they ran fast, and they won! It was a life or death matter with them.-1 Cor. 9:24; 2 Tim. 4:7; Heb. 12:1.
37 So too with Jehovah's faithful witnesses in this latter half of the twentieth century. They have the true Christian point of view. Their strenuous evangelistic activity is not something peculiar to this present decade. They have not dedicated their lives to serve Jehovah only until 1975. Christians have been running this way ever since Christ Jesus blazed the trail and commanded his disciples. "Follow me!" So keep this same mental attitude in you that was in Christ Jesus. Let nothing slow you down or cause you to tire and give out. Those who will flee Babylon the Great and this Satanic system of things are now running for their lives, headed for God's kingdom, and they will not stop at 1975. O no! They will keep on in this glorious way that leads to everlasting life, praising and serving Jehovah for ever and ever!
[Study Questions]
...
37. So what will you be doing between now and 1975? And beyond that, what?
[Emphasis Added]
[Dutch: I guess I don't have to tell you that the worde "organization" appears no where in the Bible.]
Reply: Well, not really true.
"The reason I left you behind in Crete was for you to get everything organised there."- Tit 1:5, The Jerusalem Bible.
The apostle Paul also pointed out that "God has organized the body" of Jesus Christ's anointed followers as it pleases Him. Hence, we should expect "God's congregation" to be well organized and to function peacefully, harmoniously.-1 Cor. 14:33; 12:24, The Riverside New Testament; 1 Tim 3:5.
[Dutch:I know that the Bible teaches excommunication. I also know that it teaches fasting and gluttony.]
Reply: The first century church TAUGHT "fasting and gluttony?" What did they say, "Here, don't eat, but eat all you want?" Prove it.
[Dutch: Shunning is one of them. Its cruel and a primitive form of discipline. It treats people like babies and deprives adults of the dignity they deserve.]
Reply: Then "the faith that was once for all delivered unto the saints" is not for you my dear. [Jude 3] You will have to find your own niche in life.
[Dungbeetle: "Or do they have a monetary basis for what they practice?
The answer is no."]
Reply: Thank you dung, sometimes I get help from the most unlikeliest of sources:)
[Dutch: In the first century persons were not disfellowshipped and shunned for refusing to accept that 1914 is the year of Jesus invisable presence and that the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society is the "faithful discreet slave". The had no Watch Towers, "Questions From Readers", Kingdom Ministry articles, elder manuals, Branch procedures booklets and so forth. Clearly the Good News has been changed and any who do not go along with it are disfellowshipped. This is a serious misapplication of 1 Corinthians chapter 5. Read the whole chapter and see the context.]
Reply: And like you said, spaghetti was not discovered yet either. They had no Bibles then either.
I looked up 1 Cor 5 in the NIV/NASB Study Bible. Here is what it said:
"Calling oneself a Christian who continues to live an immoral life is reprehensible and degrading, and gives a false testimony to Christ. If the true Christian has intimate association with someone who does this, the non-Christian world may assume that the church approves such immoral, ungodly living and thus the name of Christ would be dishonored. Questions would arise concerning of the Christians own testimony, judge those who are within, The church is to exercise spiritual discipline over the professing believers in the church.
REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. 1 Cor 5:13 NASB (emphasis theirs)
[Dutch: All aopologist for the watchtower say the same thing. I was around in 1975 too. I remember people putting off dental work, foreoing lifesaving operation, cashing in insurance policies, picking out the house they would move into after Armageddon. I don't know where you lived but what you experienced was certainly in the minority. I know the brothers in Europe felt the same way as did most of the brothers here. The WTBTS can deny it all they want to and you can help them, but I know that they predicted 1975 as the date. I know it because I heard it!]
Reply: Which is exactly your problem, and the reason you messed up your life. You hear what you want to hear, and disregard the rest. (Hey, there's a song like that:)
The office in Czechoslovakia sent a letter dated February 22, 1972, to all congregations. It set out a lengthy explanation of reasons why we should not make any definite assertions about the date when Armageddon will strike. It pointed out that no publication of the Society had said that Armageddon will come in a certain year. The letter concluded: "Jehovah's Witnesses around the world are familiar with these facts, and no one should any personal claims as to what will happen before or during the year 1975. There are no Scriptural grounds for any claims, and they could have a detrimental effect on the preaching work. Strive, therefore, that you 'all speak in agreement and that there be no divisions among you but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.' (1Cor 1:10) For concerning that day and hour nobody knows." Matt.24:36
